Examination of witness (Questions 260
- 279)
WEDNESDAY 21 JUNE 2000
MS JANE
BROWN
260. In that case, can you give us a synopsis
of your views? I noted that in one of the unit areas they say,
"We find that we have as yet had no meaningful discussions
with MAFF management on the status of input and processing of
grant and subsidy applications. We maintain that the consultants
have seriously misinterpreted the needs of the process as determined
by the practical needs of farmers. The road towards good intentions
of government with IT systems is littered with proud words and
failed systems." How do you respond to that criticism?
(Ms Brown) I think it is important to bear in mind
that the PwC report was not intended to provide us with a detailed
blueprint for implementation. It was a high level concept of what
the future might look like. We have been spending the last few
months working up a much more detailed plan for taking this forward.
261. Is that MAFF people alone doing it or have
you had expert advice from people who have made complex systems
actually work? Who are these people?
(Ms Brown) We are doing it with assistance from PA
Consulting who are working with us and we have also contacted
some of our other MAFF IT contacts. ICL have given us their views.
262. ICL Pathway? The same people who had their
Post Office project kicked into the long grass?
(Ms Brown) One learns from failures as well as successes.
We have consulted a number of different people but PA Consulting
are the people who are working with us currently.
263. Coming back to the point I raised, the
unions who operate existing systems, and who struck me when we
spoke to them at Crewe as having a good, practical feel for what
works and what does not, say that they have had no meaningful
discussions with you. Would you like to focus on that and say
whether you think you have and, if you have not, why not?
(Ms Brown) We have had meaningful discussions with
the trade unions. We certainly have not completed the discussion
process because we are still at an early stage of implementation
and we are keen to work very closely with the trade unions. They
have had two meetings with the Minister about the PwC report.
We have had working level discussions on a number of issues. We
have demonstrated to the trade unions the IT development work
which is going on, the electronic forms which have been piloted
in the Anglia region—
264. Have they been successful?
(Ms Brown) Yes.
265. This is the Cambridge experiment?
(Ms Brown) This is the Cambridge experiment. It has
thrown up some problems but that is why you pilot things. Generally,
I think it has been successful.
266. Have you had a chance to study Plymouth
University's Seale-Hayne Faculty report on e-farming or e-folly?
(Ms Brown) Yes, I read that the other day.
267. What conclusion do you draw from that?
(Ms Brown) I draw the conclusion that the concept
in the PwC report is the right one. The trick of developing it
successfully is going to be the timing and the help we can make
available, both directly and using third parties, to those farmers
who are not ready to use the technology.
268. Have you yet formed in your own mind a
view of the type of overall model of an IT system to replace current
procedures? Does your model envisage a single processing centre
or dispersed centres? Which model are you currently seeing in
your vision of the future?
(Ms Brown) This is the proposal which is currently
with the Minister. He is considering it. PwC pointed out that
there was a range of options from a single processing centre to
a number of centres. With modern technology, in a sense, it is
less important if you can use work flow technology to send the
stuff either all to one point or to half a dozen points. It makes
no difference as far as the customer is concerned.
269. When you say "the proposal",
this is a multichoice proposal which the Minister currently is
considering, is it?
(Ms Brown) The Minister is considering a draft business
case for taking forward the recommendations from the PwC review.
Mr Marsden
270. You mentioned the business excellence model
and you said that MAFF was trialling this. Is it Northallerton
who is trialling it?
(Ms Brown) Northallerton is one of the RSCs.
271. Following on from what Mr Jack said about
how far this trial is going, do you know how many processes have
been looked at?
(Ms Brown) No. We are at a fairly early stage.
272. If I was to suggest to you that, based
on our visit, when I asked for evidence of what was being looked
at, they showed me a wall of post-it notes which covered one process
which they had not looked at for many weeks because "they
did not have the time". They had "very little training".
From the abysmal evidence shown to me, which was quite pitiful,
there is not a cat in hell's chance of them being able to make
any fundamental changes not just to that process but to any others.
Normally, the business excellence model is something that a dedicated
project team would look at over many months. It would have an
awful lot of resource put at its disposal. It would come up with
several hundred pages' worth of self-assessment. The evidence
that, after the visit, I asked for resulted in one paragraph from
the Organic Farming National Scheme Management Centre and a whopping
great page and a half from the IT lead regional unit, based on
what they were doing with the EFQM excellence model. That was
after my prompting.
(Ms Brown) That is the Crewe follow-up. That is not
the Northallerton follow-up.
273. I know, but that one is and that clearly
is totally inadequate.
(Ms Brown) The IT lead region is Crewe.
274. Yes, and Northallerton could not show me
any evidence. What I am saying is that Crewe, who claim to be
the IT lead region for the EFQM excellence model, have shown me
a page and a half.
(Ms Brown) No, not for the EFQM excellence model.
275. Can I read you this? "The IT lead
region unit applies the principles of the EFQM excellence model
. . . when carrying out its responsibilities." It does not
believe that people resources or society resources should be included
in that. I say again it is pitiful. Any other business that you
were to enter, if you were to ask for evidence of the business
excellence model by comparison, would simply laugh at what MAFF
is presently doing.
(Ms Brown) I accept that we are at a very early stage
in this. We have brought someone in who has experience of doing
it elsewhere.
Mr Jack
276. Who is this someone?
(Ms Brown) He is a civil servant from the Employment
Service, who has worked with the excellence model in the Employment
Service, so that we can learn from their experience. We are also
working closely with the Intervention Board who have used this
for some time and have done a lot more than we have.
Mr Marsden
277. Can I suggest that you give those staff
the time and resources and that you start to fundamentally have
another look at this?
(Ms Brown) Yes. I accept that we need to do that.
Mr Hurst
278. You may not be aware that Mr Marsden moonlights
as Jeremy Paxman. How do you define efficiency?
(Ms Brown) I told you earlier that we are looking
at the unit cost of processing a claim, carrying out a field inspection
and the unit cost of making a pound of CAP subsidy payment, so
those are the measures that we are using. Clearly, we are not
going to be efficient if we drive our costs right down to the
extent that we start missing all the deadlines for making those
payments. You have to get the balance right between cutting your
costs and delivering to time and to the quality that your customers
are looking for.
279. With the great managerial sweep that Mr
Marsden was putting to you just now, would you be able to assess
the cost of that if you implemented it on that scale?
(Ms Brown) The cost of producing the hundreds of pages
of the excellence model?
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