Examination of witness (Questions 300
- 322)
WEDNESDAY 21 JUNE 2000
MS JANE
BROWN
300. But not all the CAP stuff?
(Ms Brown) Not all the CAP stuff; not all the claim
processing stuff.
301. What proportion of staff in the RSCs at
HEO level and above are locally appointed?
(Ms Brown) The way the system works is that vacancies
are advertised across the Department, so anyone can apply from
London or another Regional Service Centre but, in practice, a
pretty high proportion of the appointments, certainly at HEO level,
would be local ones, people being promoted from within their own
office, but we do have a bit of movement between—
302. Most of them stay there. They do not move
to other Regional Service Centres or elsewhere in MAFF?
(Ms Brown) At SEO level and above, there is a fair
bit of movement between offices.
303. There is a table in the MAFF submission
on disallowance figures. Most of it is disallowed to SAPS. That
must be stupid farmers. It turns out to be "Sheep Annual
Premium Scheme." How do these disallowance figures for Britain
compare with disallowance figures in other European countries?
(Ms Brown) We do not do too badly compared with other
European countries but we have our share of disallowance.
304. Are we right at the bottom of disallowance
figures? Are we losing less money or are we high up?
(Ms Brown) We are somewhere around the middle. It
varies from year to year.
305. If you have such an efficient structure,
85 per cent of the time and effort of which is involved in policing
the CAP, why are we only in the middle in terms of disallowance?
Why are we not right down at the bottom?
(Ms Brown) Because we have not got it right on every
occasion.
306. Does that mean you are not being tough
enough with the farmers?
(Ms Brown) There are always judgments to be made on
how tough you want to be in order to avoid any risk of disallowance.
307. Of course. Where does the onus lie, in
your view?
(Ms Brown) We have a responsibility to make these
payments in accordance with the EU rules. Therefore, we do need
to avoid disallowance. That flows from the MAFF target, to make
these payments in full compliance with EU rules. If we do not
comply, we get disallowance.
308. We have in the submission a vision of consumer
benefits and great efficiency and the marvels that are going to
flow from the new agency as recommended by PricewaterhouseCoopers,
no doubt at enormous expense. It is going to bring genuine benefits
to farmers and traders. It is going to enable claims to be processed
more quickly. It is going to allow us to provide intelligent forms,
to guide claimants with information. It is going to be absolutely
marvellous but, as head of the service, let me ask you what is
the effect on the lads and lasses out in the Regional Centres
of this lyrical vision? Essentially, we are saying to them that
the top people are going to be moved into the regional offices
to do think work and you are going to be replaced by an "I
speak your subsidy" machine.
(Ms Brown) There will be some interesting jobs for
staff in the new payment processing arrangements, but it is undeniable
that there will be fewer staff involved than there are at present.
That is an inevitable consequence of moving to a more IT based
system and clearly that is not good news for the people concerned.
309. Morale has been badly affected?
(Ms Brown) People are worried. There is no doubt about
that. They are keen to know how things are going to be taken forward.
Chairman
310. You said that the National Scheme Management
Centres would not go into headquarters. Where will they go?
(Ms Brown) They would go into the new processing agency.
311. They could all be centralised in one place,
even if the centralisation were not at headquarters?
(Ms Brown) If the new agency was to be centralised
to a single site, yes, but I think it is more likely that the
new agency will be on a number of sites.
312. Some of the Regional Service Centres will
stay, will they?
(Ms Brown) I think that is likely.
Chairman: That is a fair deduction. We can finish
our "Paxman" discussion.
Mr Marsden
313. In terms of standards, how soon can a farmer
expect a reply to a letter that he sends in to the service?
(Ms Brown) The RSCs work to a target of 10 days for
handling correspondence.
314. What sort of responsibilities do the farmers
have in terms of being able to help the Regional Service Centre
in relation to "dos" and "don'ts"?
(Ms Brown) The "Commitment to Service" booklet
lists things that they can do to help us.
315. What sort of things are those?
(Ms Brown) I do not have that at my finger tips, but
things such as providing accurate information and clear identification
of the query that they want answered and those sorts of things.
316. You have got one out of nine. The Customer
Satisfaction Survey conducted in 1995 says, "Whilst customers
are deriving the benefits of the pledges made in the [Commitment
to Service], the great majority of them are unaware that the service
provided by RSC staff has been determined by it". More recently,
that has been backed up by the National Sheep Association's finding
that 87 per cent of members surveyed were unaware of the new regional
performance standards. Do you think that it matters whether the
customer knows what the standards are? What is MAFF doing to raise
awareness of the document?
(Ms Brown) In January we sent copies of the new "Commitment
to Service" booklet to all farmers. Whether farmers read
it or whether it went into the bin with all the other unsolicited
literature that they receive is up to them. We have done what
we can to publicise it. Certainly, if they want to know what our
standards are, they should not have any difficulty in finding
them out. That is the key point.
317. Eight out of 10 of your customers do not
know what those standards are. It is difficult to enforce them
from the customer point of view, if they do not know what they
are. People do not read the bumph that they receive through the
post anyway.
(Ms Brown) We are not trying to force those on the
customers.
318. From the customers' point of view, customers
need to know what the standards are, in the first place, to enable
them to help drive up standards. If they do not know what the
standards are they cannot be empowered.
(Ms Brown) We have a responsibility to publicise them,
as we do, and when they come into the offices we try to ensure
that they know what they can expect and, equally, what we expect
from them.
319. How do individual RSCs select the members
of regional liaison groups?
(Ms Brown) That is the responsibility of the regional
director, who is asked to select people who will give a good spread
of local knowledge and contacts.
320. There is no consistency between the RSCs,
as far as you are aware, in terms of the membership of those regional
liaison groups?
(Ms Brown) There is a fair degree of consistency,
but they are not told, "You must have no less than eight
and no more than 12 and they must come from such and such organisations".
I do not think that would fulfil the objective of getting a spread
that was representative of a particular region.
321. Can you give examples of where views expressed
in the regional liaison groups has resulted in a change of policy
by MAFF?
(Ms Brown) I am not sure whether I can think of any
specific changes of policy, but I can certainly think of ways
in which the feedback that comes through the regional liaison
groups influences the policy-thinking in the department.
322. The Regional Panels have been replaced
by ministerial visits. What are the advantages of the two systems
of regional consultation—regional liaison groups and ministerial
visits? How would you sell that as a package in terms of consultation?
(Ms Brown) The point of moving to the system of regional
liaison groups was to get a broader spread of contacts into the
system. The panels were very much farmer-focused and there was
a feeling that Ministers wanted to meet a wider range of representatives
of the rural community. As far as I know, that is working pretty
effectively.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed, Ms Brown.
I have one small thought to cheer you up as you go. The form of
the Irish IACS panel says that if you hold a milk quota on 31
March 2000 "please tick (X) this box"! Thank you very
much.
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