Examination of Witness (Questions 180
- 199)
TUESDAY 23 MAY 2000
RT HON
NICHOLAS BROWN,
MP
180. So at this stage no conditions have been
set for radical administrative reform leading to savings being
a part of the condition for supporting this particular package
of measures?
(Mr Brown) No. Clearly, the objectives of other government
departments in this could be different in nuance from my own.
If we are going to do this, we are going to do it right, and on
a programme that is agreed from the beginningif we are
to do itand I have not submitted a proposal yet within
Government.
181. Will that initiative be led by MAFF?
(Mr Brown) Clearly, the parameters for it, because
it requires the expenditure of monies upfront, even if there are
savings to be achieved later, must be set in discussion with others,
but once those parameters are set, provided it is satisfactorywhich
means that I can achieve the objectives that I have just described
to the Committeethen it will be led by MAFF.
182. The Action Plan suggested the setting up
of a High-Level Unit, as it is called, to co-ordinate the delivery
of the plan. Who is in charge of that?
(Mr Brown) Clearly, I am, as the Minister. They tell
me I am in charge of all sorts of things, apparently. This is
something I want to discuss with the new Permanent Secretary when
he takes post on 1 June.
183. So this unit does not exist?
(Mr Brown) No, it does.
184. It does?
(Mr Brown) Work is progressing now.
185. But the unit does not exist in the sense
of a clearly defined group of people with a task in front of them?
(Mr Brown) I see what you mean. Whether or not this
project can be taken forward is something that is being looked
at within the Department now.
186. I have slightly shifted tack, which is
that the delivery of the Action Plan apparently had a high-level
unit attached to it.
(Mr Brown) Let us be quite clear about this, because
it is a sensitive matter. Are you asking me about the reorganisation
of the regional offices?
187. No, I am not asking about that.
(Mr Brown) Because there is no unit yet to progress
that.
188. But it is useful to know that there might
be.
(Mr Brown) Although if it is to be progressed, it
will be by a high-level unit, and I will be in charge of it.
189. Good. The actual thrust of my question
related to the High-Level Unit that had been set up, in the terms
that are used, to the delivery of the Action Plan itself. Does
that unit exist?
(Mr Brown) Yes, we have
190. Who is in charge of that?
(Mr Brown) The acting Permanent Secretary is currently
in charge of it, and the new Permanent Secretary will be in charge
of it.
Chairman: Minister, a number of colleagues have
asked for the floor. I am going to ask them to be very brief and
ask questions relating to what we have just been discussing over
the last hour or so, in case there are any points which they feel
they would like to pick up on, because I want to leave time for
ten minutes or quarter of an hour on the GM issue, to bring us
up to date. Therefore, I shall ask colleagues to be very crisp
in their questions, if you feel you can be relatively crisp in
your replies, because I want to give everybody a break before
moving on to Standing Committees.
Mr Drew
191. I was going to go on quickly to look at
the issue of supermarkets and ask a straightforward question.
When is this long-awaited code going to be delivered now? What
will be the sanctions if they break ranks, and can we expect more
of last weekend's "We're GM free and we're not taking materials
from those farms" leadership from the supermarkets?
(Mr Brown) On the question of the code, it is voluntary,
and this is the first time we have got the industry to sign up
to a code. It sets out points of principle announced at the summit.
There is still detailed work being done on it. The IGD (the Institute
of Grocery Distribution) are taking the lead on this for the industry.
Frankly, I welcome the work that is being done. Officials of the
IGD have put in a lot of hard work on this. Clearly, though, it
is sensitive in the sector because, of course, the retailers compete
very competitively with each other.
Mr Paterson
192. A couple of times you have said that certain
matters of selling food are now entirely the responsibility of
the Food Standards Agency. What is your relationship with that
organisation now? The one case that hit the headlines is the closure
of the Eardisley plant, which means that 350,000 Welsh lambs from
the borders have had to find another abattoir. There are very
serious consequences from the decisions made by the Meat Hygiene
Service which is now under the Food Standards Agency. There must
be some means by which you can put the case for agriculture?
(Mr Brown) Yes, there is.
193. How will it work? How does it work?
(Mr Brown) The Agency's lead Minister is the Secretary
of State for Health, but they advise me on matters of mainline
ministerial responsibility, and clearly there is a two-way communication
between us. It is particularly important at the Council of Ministers
where many of the matters of which they have stewardship fall
to be discussed at the Agriculture Council, because of the way
in which the institutions of the European Union work. So there
is a two-way dialogue, and relationships are in good order.
194. So going to that specific case, what have
you done?
(Mr Brown) I have asked them for a briefing note as
to the background on the case. I have read it very carefully,
and there are a number of matters which are matters of law that
arise out of it. In other words, the reportage is not the whole
story. I will not go further than that, because there are matters
that will end up in front of the courts. I have got to be careful
about answering.
195. It is more the point that the all-party
pre-Select Committee recommended that the Food Standards Agency
could not perform the role of the executive agency running the
Meat Hygiene Service and in the same breath be the policing agency.
Are the Government having second thoughts on this after one month?
(Mr Brown) Not that I am aware of. The Food Standards
Agency has been set up with the structure that we are familiar
with. That includes the Next Steps Agency, which is the Meat Hygiene
Service, falling within its area of competence.
Mr Öpik
196. I have one question. There is a view amongst
some farmers that the free market is not really holding farm-gate
milk prices at an economically sustainable level, especially for
small producers. Do you think there is any case for investigating
whether there is a way of holding those prices up, given that
a couple of pence on the milk price will not make a great deal
of difference between the farm gate and the consumer?
(Mr Brown) There are two extended factors that set
the free rate for the market place: the way in which the dairy
regime operates, and also, of course, the exchange rates between
sterling and the euro. My belief is that the way forwardthe
right way forwardis for the industry to make strategic
alliances through the food chain, so that each element in the
chain can get a decent return on what is put in. In other words,
it is the strategic alliances, which are effectively private sector
alliances, which are the future for the industry. As the sponsoring
Minister, I do everything I can to try to make these relationships
as easy as possible and try to draw the attention of those responsible
to the enormous advantages of working co-operatively.
Dr Turner
197. It is fairly traditional to solve problems
in agriculture, Minister, by giving farmers money. What is unusual
in this is really the business element, so driving down bureaucracy,
giving proper business advice and ensuring that possibly better
use is made of ITI personally think those are the novel
things. Government IT in the past has not covered itself in glory
in implementing, and there are in fact quite clearly many sceptics
in the industry. Government business advice has got a very mottled
reception in different parts of the country over the years. You
have explained to the Committee where the finance is coming from,
but my own impression is that it is going to be management that
matters, and it is going to need overseeing properly, with proper
feedback and trialling and a whole set of management techniques
used to make sure we do not have disaster in this part of it.
Could you say a little bit about how you, at the top, are putting
in place the structures that will ensure that we actually get
this novel part of the plan to deliver?
(Mr Brown) I am a great believer in the business focused
elements of this package, and I fought very strongly for them.
As you can imagine, there are a number of choices to be made.
198. I appreciate that.
(Mr Brown) I really stand by what I said to the Committee
earlier, that now is the time to take a look at these farm businesses
in the round, not just focused on the agricultural component and
the supply side measures, but direct support measures. How will
we monitor progress? I have a responsibility for co-ordinating
across Government the progress on the different action points
that came out of the summit. I have a regular review meeting with
the officials in my Department, so I can see how things are going,
and here will be a meeting relatively soon of all of those who
were at the summit, all of those who wish to come as participants,
to review progress collectively. In other words, I intend to drive
this forward and to drive it forward in a methodical way.
Mr Marsden
199. Do you intend to review and evaluate the
Action Plan for Farming?
(Mr Brown) We will try, but of course some of the
outcomes do not lend themselves easily to measurementchecking
on the reconstruction element this, for example. The price has
strengthened in the market place. Is this because of measures
that the Government and the NFC have taken? I believe in part
yes, but it would not wholly be that. The problem of supply and
demand has clearly come closer into balance throughout the European
Union.
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