Examination of Witness (Questions 120
- 139)
WEDNESDAY 5 JULY 2000
DR NICOLAS
LAMPKIN
120. It would certainly be worthwhile, bearing
in mind your very strong assertion here, if you provided more
evidence for it. Can I turn to the issue of public health and
the assertion on food quality? How do you measure food quality?
(Dr Lampkin) There is a range of ways of measuring
food quality which can go down to chemical analysis of individual
products within the foodstuff, whether it is minerals or vitamins
on the positive side, or negative content of things like nitrates
and so on. You can do much more sophisticated chemical analysis,
looking at secondary metabolites and various other things like
that. What really is important is the overall effect which the
products might have on the health of animals and humans that consume
those products. That research is very much more difficult to do.
People have tried to find different ways of reflecting it. Certainly,
it is very difficult to do a sound study of organic food quality
and its effect on human health because of all the other environmental
factors that affect humans, but there have been trials with animals
where benefits have been identified in terms of reduced morbidity
and mortality and improved reproduction rates in those animals,
so there is some evidence available.
121. We have again heard very strong statements
that there is no apparent link in qualitative terms between organic
produce and either human health outcomes or indeed demonstrable
food quality, bearing in mind that one of the aspects of quality
might be the storeability of a product, which certainly many people
purchasing something might be concerned about.
(Dr Lampkin) There have been a number of studies done
over the last two decades, particularly in Germany and Switzerland,
which have looked at these food quality issues including the storeability
issue. One of the studies done in Germany is only available in
German but I could get you a reference to it. It looked at the
storeability issue specifically and found that the organic product
was capable of longer storage life and that partly had to do with
lower nitrate content, nitrate feeding fungi and so on, which
tend to increase the rate at which a product declines.
Mr Jack
122. What kind of products are we talking about?
(Dr Lampkin) We are talking about vegetables like
carrots, in particular, in that particular study.
123. It is only carrots?
(Dr Lampkin) No. I was just referring to that one
study. There are two issues about food quality. One is governments
have tended not to want to fund research on food quality so there
has been much less research done on that topic than has been done
on environmental issues. Secondly, the research that has been
done tends to show the differences in very specific cases, so
it is quite difficult to make a general, overall conclusion that
organic food is always better. I would not attempt to say that.
There are specific instances—carrots are a good example;
leafy vegetables that tend to take up nitrates is another good
example—where there have been clear quality differences
demonstrated by these research projects. I have summarised from
the German literature some of those in my book on organic farming
about ten years ago. It is not my area of research but I know
there are more recent studies also from Switzerland which I have
not looked at in detail, which again have identified quality differences.
There is a body of research on this but it is not as great as
the body of research on other issues.
Mr Todd
124. Clearly not a body of research that has
produced a consensus?
(Dr Lampkin) No, but I would also argue that many
of the researchers in the United Kingdom have not had access to
much of that research because it has been published in other languages—in
particular, in German.
125. We have clearly seen a substantial investment
in conversion over the last two years or so which will in due
course come through into increased quantity of products available
in the market place. Logically, unless the market continues to
expand rapidly, this will start to affect the premium available
to those farmers for their produce. What would you anticipate
would be the effect of a substantial reduction in the premium
available to farmers of organic produce?
(Dr Lampkin) I am not convinced that there will be
a significant reduction in prices to farmers in the short to medium
term. By that, I mean in the next three years or so, that sort
of period. It is difficult to look further forward. Organic prices
have been remarkably stable for the last three years. I do not
really see any reason why that would not continue. The reasons
for that are, firstly, that increased production in the United
Kingdom is likely to substitute for imports in the first place.
Secondly, the market is continuing to expand and I think the announcement
by Iceland recently is an indication of the sorts of pressures
that are there. As supply increases, I would see many more large
scale moves to shift existing brands over to organic ingredients.
I think the market still has a lot of potential to expand from
where it currently is. The third reason why I think farmers are
not going to be particularly affected, even if prices for the
consumer are coming down, is because much of the additional costs
that consumers are facing is generated in the distribution and
processing network. That has to do with the handling of relatively
small quantities of product. As more supply becomes available,
there is a lot of potential for significant economies of scale
in the processing and distribution system, so that the consumer
price should be able to come down while not necessarily affecting
to a great extent the price the farmer gets. Having said that,
organic farms at the moment, with the current levels of prices,
are relatively profitable. There is some scope for a reduction
in price at the farm gate to be absorbed by those farmers, particularly
as new research is generating improved techniques for organic
farmers and so on. There is some scope for those price reductions
to be absorbed without necessarily getting farmers into a difficult
financial situation. That is a very generalised thing. There are
clearly specific commodities—and I would say store lambs
in particular are one but store cattle could also be a problem—where
there may well be short term problems as the market develops and
farmers may not be able to get organic prices for those stores.
126. I admire your optimism but it certainly
would be the first example in my experience where the primary
producer was not squeezed at the end of the supply chain. This
Committee studies a number of examples of this and that is normally
the outcome. It is interesting that you take a different view.
(Dr Lampkin) That very much has to do with supply
and demand issues and at the moment demand still significantly
exceeds supply.
Mr Jack
127. In paragraph seven of your evidence you
say, "The majority of organic food is imported, due to the
lack of domestic supply." If we take out of that equation
those products, for example, tropical fruits and citrus, which
cannot be grown in the United Kingdom, what does the balance of
trade look like then?
(Dr Lampkin) I think you would have to refer for exact
data to the Soil Association's report on statistics from last
year. If I can recall that, it would suggest that probably still
about 30 to 40 per cent of things like meat and dairy products
was being imported. If you look at beef, pork and a whole range
of products like that, there is a very substantial level of imports
currently relative to domestic production. I would have to refer
you to the Soil Association's Report for more exact data.
Chairman
128. I was intrigued you mentioned improvements
in techniques. In conventional agriculture we have got used to
the idea there is an underlying annual increase in yields because
improvements always come from technology, but one thinks of organic
and one's image of organic is much more of a basic agriculture.
Can you say a little more about where the productivity gains in
organic come from, so one can look to farmers being able to take
less of a premium?
(Dr Lampkin) I can take two examples. Dairy would
be a major case in point. Looking back at the German situation
historically but also looking at the current very high price for
organic milk at least relative to conventional at the moment,
it is very tempting to say that when farmers have a very high
price there is no real incentive for them to do a lot about their
cost structures, yet it is clear from the research we have been
doing at Aberystwyth that there is a lot of potential for much
better production from forage and from the farm's own resources
in terms of reducing costs, reducing reliance on purchased concentrates,
and therefore being much more cost efficient in milk production.
That would be one example, to pursue that question of milk from
forage much further through research and better information bringing
down costs. A second example would be in relation to things like
cereal yields, where it is quite clear from the research at ADAS
Terrington, for example, that much higher levels of productivity
can be achieved. I know Terrington is on very good quality land
and that is one factor, but it seems to me there are clearly lots
of other factors in the management of those cereals which could
result in much better yields than most organic farmers are actually
achieving.
129. So we should not assume that the concept
of high tech cannot be applied to organic?
(Dr Lampkin) There is certainly scope for some technologies
to be applied to the organic context. I think we have to come
back to what are the organic principles and how the technology
relate to those principles.
130. Could we move on to certification and the
issues around that? Can I ask you about UKROFS and how you rate
that? You say the system was under severe pressure as a result
of inadequate funding, could you explain a little more about that?
(Dr Lampkin) One of the major ways that has been observed,
and I think you need to talk to the importers about that, has
been the quite significant delays reported in the press and also
directly by importers in clearing import consignments which have
been waiting for third country status, or whatever, for them to
come in as imports into this country. In some cases perishable
products have been involved. That has been where the biggest problem
has occurred. I have been involved in trying to ascertain statistics
on organic farming and have been quite aware there have often
been significant delays in UKROFS in registering all the new farms
which have been submitted through the certification bodies. I
cannot, as an outsider, say necessarily whether that is entirely
the responsibility of the certification bodies or UKROFS, I am
just conscious that the UKROFS data is often several months behind
the data I get from the certification bodies and that somewhere
in the process things are not being kept up to speed as well as
they might be.
131. So at the moment we have UKROFS as the
over-arching body?
(Dr Lampkin) Yes.
132. As the gendarme, as it were, of the other
certification bodies. Would you regard that as a satisfactory
structure or do you think that from the point of view of the perceptions
by consumers, retailers, farmers and so on, that there would be
a more preferable structure, and what would it be?
(Dr Lampkin) I think the current structure is reasonably
good, but there is room for some improvement. It proved necessary
in the late 1980s to find a mechanism to bring the various organic
organisations together. I think now, particularly in relation
to the development of the organic livestock regulation, there
is a much better basis for collaboration between those organisations,
but I think what we need to be careful about is a recognition
of the contribution which the organic sector itself has made to
the development of the concept and to the development of standards,
and that there is a continuing role for the organic sector, the
organic movement if you want, to play in maintaining high standards
for the consumer. I would be nervous about a situation where the
system became totally institutionalised within Government and
totally divorced from the organic movement and the consumer trust
which is placed in the organic movement.
133. Even though, in a sense, the judge and
jury are within the same body in some cases?
(Dr Lampkin) Could you clarify what you mean?
134. The Soil Association, for example, is an
advocate, a lobby, for organic production but it is also a certification
agency.
(Dr Lampkin) The Soil Association has a company which
carries out the certification and that is judged under all the
procedures to be a sufficient distancing of the certification
operation from the organisation. I would restate the need to recognise
the very important contribution that was made by the organic movement
in developing the concept and developing standards, and I think
there is a very strong interest in maintaining those standards,
maintaining that quality, and therefore there is an advantage
to their involvement rather than a disadvantage.
135. Am I right in saying that certification,
and this is particularly true of the European regulations which
are about to be applied, is about processing? It does not seek
in any way to do other than to certify a method of production,
it does not seek to make any claims as to the nature or quality
or inherent goodness or otherwise of that production?
(Dr Lampkin) The certification of organic food relates
to the process by which that food is produced, not to specific
characteristics of the end product, yes.
136. Do you think that there is no practical
way in which it could be otherwise? Is that the right approach?
(Dr Lampkin) I think with the current level of knowledge
there is not a practical way of doing things differently. The
range of products is so wide, the potential for quality differences
is, at best, unclear. I have indicated there are some studies
but it is not a consistent thing. I do not think you could find,
at this stage of knowledge at least, a way of really identifying
product criteria rather than process criteria.
Mr Todd
137. You have highlighted in your paper the
possible inadequacies of support for the horticulture sector.
Could you set out in more detail what you meant by that?
(Dr Lampkin) I need to refer you back to the organic
farming scheme data because it is momentarily not in my mind.
The sort of levels of support that we are looking at, which is
of the order of between £100 and £200 per hectare during
the conversion period, is relatively meaningless in terms of the
much higher gross margins and potential loss of profitability
on horticultural holdings, where you might be dealing with losses
of £2 to £3,000 per hectare rather than £1 or £200
per hectare during the conversion period. So in that sense the
existing organic farming scheme really has nothing to offer horticultural
producers who might be wanting to convert.
138. Has that meant there has been no conversion
of horticulture?
(Dr Lampkin) There is conversion of horticulture but
it is restricted really to those farms which are mixed farms with
a horticulture operation, so they do not face the same costs as
a specialist horticultural holding might face. Where supermarkets
have put pressure on their large suppliers, the specialist growers,
to supply them with organic products, they have tended not to
achieve that through converting their own land but by going on
to organic arable farms and trying to grow their organic vegetables
in that context. For most specialist growers, one of the biggest
issues they will need to do is to find a way of building up fertility,
and that means they will not have nearly as profitable crops for
one or two years within the rotation period, and that is one of
the major disincentives for them to convert their own land.
139. So how could the scheme be modified to
meet that?
(Dr Lampkin) There has to be more work done on what
the actual cost of conversion of some of these specialist field-scale
growers would be, and to what extent future price advantages might
compensate for some of the cost of conversion. That work has not
really been done. There is one study which has been completed
on fruit production, there is another one in process on field
vegetable production, but the data is not really very good on
that. One of the issues which has been up for debate has been
trying to distinguish between market gardens, large scale field
vegetable producers, orchards and a whole range of circumstances,
but we need to start to try categorising those, as many other
European countries have done, to look at the possibility of a
higher level of payment within the remit of the appropriate regulations
for fruit production and possibly for field-scale vegetables.
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