Examination of witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
WEDNESDAY 12 JULY 2000
MR NICK
BRADLEY, MRS
JOANNA COMLEY
and MR OLIVER
WATSON
280. I would be particularly pleased if each
of you could identify what you see as being the major advantages/distinction
which justifies these rather large reductions in yields that clearly
are very real indeed. What would you see as being the major and
unique benefits from organic farming? Perhaps, Mr Watson, being
in it the longest, you have had time to see.
(Mr Watson) I would not say, as you have already pointed
out, that there are many things one could say were unique to organic
farming systems. They probably could be found in isolation in
other systems. People treat animals well, treat employees well,
grow trees, use less fertiliser and less pesticides, etcetera,
but what you will find in the organic system is a unique collection
of benefits, a basket of benefits which you do not find in conventional
agriculture. I do not think there is anything unique. I would
not say food safety is uniquely better because it might exist
in other sectors, or other parts of the conventional system, but
what is unique is the consideration of a whole system both up-stream
and down-stream of farming activities, so it is a total package
of benefits and I think that is unique.
281. What would you say is the distinctive part
of that because motivation is very heavily market led? What is
the main ingredient that you see leads to that package? What is
the main feature of organic farming that leads to this package
over conventional farming?
(Mr Watson) You are getting into a very problematic
area. I expect most of you are probably familiar with the IFOAM
principles which is the larger picture of what organics should
be about which is to do with the picture up and down stream from
the farm. The way I see organics is that what has happened with
organic farming has become synonymous with not using pesticides
and fertilizer and high animal welfare standards and what you
see on the back of a package. You have got this problem between
the ideology and what is being marketed as organic and what exists
in reality. In answer to your question, which was what is the
driving force behind the whole movement or the marketing of it,
there is this ideology but, sadly, a lot of that is not coming
through in the reality of the products. I am not making myself
clear.
282. I am not quite clear. It is clear from
the balance of the evidence we have heard today that a lot of
farmers are going into it because they make more money bluntly.
(Mr Watson) Right.
Dr Turner: You are saying it delivers a package
of benefits to society.
Chairman
283. It makes some money.
(Mr Watson) In its ideal form it does.
Dr Turner
284. If they are motivated mainly by making
money, what is it about the system that leads to that package?
Is it the regulation, the rule book?
(Mr Watson) I think it is a philosophy. If you take
the IFOAM principles, when the certifying bodies are making the
regulations they are always trying to reach this ideology which
is laid out in these principles or in this movement. Whether that
actually hits the target or not in the implementation in practice,
one can probably find fault with the system.
285. Have you got more wildlife on your farm?
(Mr Watson) We definitely have, yes. That is a benefit.
Certainly if you subscribe to the view that reduced pesticide
levels in food is an important thing then that is a benefit. The
welfare standards are high, as Nick has already said, in relation
to poultry. A lot of people find it very difficult to conform
to the welfare standards in pigs and poultry because they are
very exacting. You might find lots of people do treat their chickens
well anyway and that is the organic system, so one could not say
that is unique to the organic movement.
286. I wonder if either Mrs Comley or Mr Bradley
feel they have enough experience yet to comment on whether they
have seen on their farms any of these broader advantages physically
present or observable?
(Mrs Comley) I think we are much more aware of environmental
issues now. We have just joined FWAG, which is the Farm Wildlife
Advisory Group. There are things now that we do not do that we
used to do, like top the reeds down in the marsh field because
that is a good habitat whereas before we used to top them because
it looked tidier. Once you go organic you pick up other things
and you do become more environmentally aware.
287. Are they flowing from things you are doing,
becoming organic in terms of your production?
(Mrs Comley) No, it was nothing really to do with
organic.
288. Or has your mind-set changed?
(Mrs Comley) Yes, I think our mind-set has definitely
changed. We are much more aware of life and looking after the
soil.
289. Do you have much more wildlife on your
farm?
(Mrs Comley) There always was quite a bit of wildlife
on our farm anyway. We are more aware of making sure that we help
it along. Before it was there and that was it.
(Mr Watson) Nearly all of the surveys by the RSPB
and bodies like that about wildlife on organic farms indicate
improved levels of wildlife.
290. Have you any firm evidence yourself yet,
Mr Bradley?
(Mr Bradley) No, but it might be worth mentioning
the fact, speaking as a tenant farmer with an obligation to keep
the farm clean at all times, there is a serious problem within
conventional farming, for instance a lot of weeds are becoming
more resistant to herbicides.
Chairman
291. Black grass.
(Mr Bradley) I would welcome alternative methods of
controlling some of the more pernicious weeds on the farm. I think
that would be of benefit.
Dr Turner
292. Finally, do you have any fears or concerns
about where you sit now in organic farming? Have any of the E.coli
scares left you worried that your premia and basis for making
a better living might disappear or are you feeling fairly secure?
(Mr Watson) The E.coli scare was a load of
old cobblers, was it not?
293. It does not matter whether it is cobblers
or not, it scared them.
(Mr Watson) No, I do not really. I do not have any
worries about it. As a milk producer we were always a very low
cost milk producer anyway and that was why we found conversion
very easy. I am always going to be able to produce milk at low
cost. You have to face the fact that being organic is not a substitute
for being a good farmer. You have to be a good farmer and a good
business person to carry on in agriculture full stop now. You
just have to read the signposts and go accordingly.
294. How have you found your new conversions,
are you feeling secure?
(Mrs Comley) We are feeling secure at the moment.
I worry a bit that perhaps the premium will drop too much. At
the moment to my mind it is fair. The Organic Co-op have a deal
with Sainsbury's, it is not top of the range price but it is what
they consider a fair price for the farmer and what Sainsbury's
consider a fair price for them and it is a five year rolling programme.
To me, that is what it should be, you know where you are going
all the time.
Chairman
295. It is the price, not the premium strictly
speaking. You are concerned about the level of price you get.
(Mrs Comley) Yes, as long as we can make a living.
296. If conventional crops yield another 20
per cent in money, that is no skin off your nose, is it?
(Mrs Comley) No.
297. But it means the premium is less.
(Mrs Comley) It is being able to make a living out
of it, that is what we need to do.
(Mr Bradley) I feel secure in what I am doing. I think
there is going to be strong demand for organic wheat.
Dr Turner: Thank you very much.
Chairman
298. Can I just ask Mr Bradley two specific
questions. As you know in wheats, say, there are half a dozen
varieties which are overwhelmingly planted at any particular time.
Are there any varieties which lend themselves to organic production?
Has your agronomist suggested certain varieties? My second question
I will ask at the same time. I notice in a lot of the cereal production
now there is a real problem, which you referred to, of resistant
black grass and I wonder how you tackle that sort of problem.
(Mr Bradley) You mean in organic farming?
299. In organic farming, yes.
(Mr Bradley) In the first case I have not got to the
point of planting any wheat so I have not discussed varieties.
In the case of the resistant black grass, I do welcome the alternative
methods of controlling it within a cost and price structure which
allows you to control the weeds without herbicides. The seeds
can be planted later and this gives you the option, as I understand
it, to control the weeds which otherwise you would have to spray.
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