Select Committee on Agriculture Minutes of Evidence



Examination of witness (Questions 680 - 699)

WEDNESDAY 8 NOVEMBER 2000

MR ELLIOT MORLEY

  680. When will we expect that?
  (Mr Morley) The Rural White Paper will probably be out in the next week or so.

Mr Drew

  681. Just a quick one. Earlier we talked about research and development, it tended to be skewed towards crops. Now, clearly you know various claims are made, just to quote one, certainly the Soil Association said that organic dairy farmers were less likely to have a breakdown due to TB. Now I know that was very heavily criticised by conventional farmers but does it not, again, bring us back to the point that there is a need for some very urgent research on the animal side, the husbandry side, and maybe some of these issues about animal welfare do need to be properly examined and if there is some good news let us hear about it and if there is some concern let us have that broadcast?
  (Mr Morley) That is absolutely right. Of course that is an issue I think that the TB panel that is being set up could quite legitimately examine in relation to the animal husbandry and the way they are reared. As you know, of course, the NFU have chosen not to participate in the TB panel at the present time and I think that is a mistake. I very much hope they will reconsider that and it gives them the opportunity to address exactly those kinds of points that you have raised which are very important.

Mr Opik

  682. How have you developed your training and advice programme?
  (Mr Morley) For the organic sector?

  683. Yes?
  (Mr Morley) We are funding a number of the organic bodies which provide training and advice. There are also special conferences and seminars, some of which we support and some of which we do not. As I was saying, Chairman, under the English Rural Development Programme we have a particular budget line for training and education in the rural economy and there is no reason why the organic sector could not benefit from that.

  684. Has any of that been specifically earmarked for organic training and advice?
  (Mr Morley) Of course the new budget does not come on stream until April.

  685. Right.
  (Mr Morley) There has been, within the review of the organic conversion scheme, money put into that to pay for training. There have been training schemes provided.

  686. Is that earmarked specifically for organic and small processors?
  (Mr Morley) In that budget it is, yes.

  687. Will you be doing the same again in April?
  (Mr Morley) I think in April if the different organic bodies bring forward proposals to us in relation to training schemes we would look upon those sympathetically and, as I say, we do have some funding for them.

  688. The clock is ticking for them to make that submission to you?
  (Mr Morley) Yes.

  689. The Soil Association does quite a lot of this already. Is there any concern by Government that they are likely to train people towards their aims rather than the Government's?
  (Mr Morley) That is their choice. If they are providing training programmes which are not Government supported then, of course, it is entirely at their discretion the concept they wish to put into it.

  690. You do mention them in your document, paragraph 26, and the implication there is you do endorse the helpline.
  (Mr Morley) Yes, we do. We do fund the helpline and we do endorse it, yes.

  691. Do you check what they are doing in that? Are you satisfied?
  (Mr Morley) We do take a close interest in what they are doing and the way it operates. We are satisfied with the way it is being managed.

  692. Do you get any feedback on the usefulness of the advice available to farmers?
  (Mr Morley) Yes. There are a whole range of seminars and meetings around the country, many of which I attend myself. Sometimes I am a guest speaker and it gives me an opportunity to talk to people and get their feedback. Of course there is a wide range of views. Generally speaking, the courses that have been laid on by the various bodies I think have been very much appreciated by those people.

  693. Finally, do you have any kind of network where best practice can be shared amongst organic farmers?
  (Mr Morley) Yes, we are trying to disseminate best practice through the Ministry. We use the internet very extensively and our website in MAFF to actually disseminate information and information is also disseminated through the various organic bodies. The Elm Farm Association, for example, does an awful lot of work on that.

  694. It sounds to me that you are fairly satisfied that you have enough of a strategy for advice and training.
  (Mr Morley) Yes. I think the strategy is there and the framework is there. Of course there is always an argument about making funds available.

Dr Turner

  695. Can we return to international and EU considerations? Earlier on we referred briefly to the Article 14 Committee which, according to the document you submitted to us, has oversight of implementation of EU standards—in the words of the briefing you sent us—". . . meets six or eight times a year and discusses a wide range of implementation issues". There is a wide perception among UK farmers that we in fact over-egg—I think you said over-goldplate—regulations. Do we have any information, other than talking about it, any actual evidence which allows you to say we know the EU is, in fact, implementing the same standards with the same sort of rigour across the EU?
  (Mr Morley) Yes, there are one or two small examples there. For example, the new Poultry Directive coming out. I think UKROFS has applied a set of higher standards than the EU Directive there. For example, this issue of stocking density for outdoor systems, there is a ten year derogation in the EU Directive and UKROFS has gone for a five year derogation. It is one of the areas I am a bit concerned about because I do not think that particular stocking density is science based. I worry about that a bit and it is something we want to have ongoing discussions about with the EU.

  696. The sort of statement we get from farmers, and I heard this several times last week when we were doing visits, is there are some countries you can ask for organic produce and it somehow comes in the quantities you want. The implication is that there may be certification bodies but the checks are not good enough, the produce could cross the line and be exported and called organic. That is what farmers believe.
  (Mr Morley) Yes.

  697. People sitting down in Brussels or somewhere and discussing it is one thing, actual on the ground checks and validation of people is another. Are there any validation checks and follow-ups or audits taking place?
  (Mr Morley) There are checks and validation audits. It is of course the responsibility of the Commission. If the Commission agrees an EU standard then first of all the responsibility to apply the standard is on the Member State. It is the Commission's responsibility to make sure that Member States are abiding by the regulations which they have set. I know you get these stories that different countries ignore the rules and do not do anything. Of course there are examples of this. It can really be exaggerated. Generally speaking you get countries like Sweden, Austria, Holland, Denmark, these are not countries which are going to approve of shortcuts in relation to the size they apply. They are very keen on standards, they are very proud of the way they apply this. I think in all fairness we can have confidence on this. When I have an opportunity abroad, and I am on holiday, I do look at what other people are doing. They have no idea who I am. When I go walking I do look at sheep flocks and see whether they have double tags on them, I am a very sad person actually. You do find people are complying and in some cases, of course, some European countries are complying with various regulations in a way that we are not in the UK and we have to sort some of these issues out. There is a lot of exaggeration in relation to what other countries do. That is not to say we should be complacent and it is not to say that examples may exist and, of course, we do need to make sure that all countries are applying their standards properly. We need to make sure that the EU, which in the end does have a legal overview, does use that overview to spotcheck in order to ensure that things are done properly.

Mr Mitchell

  698. Do you walk mainly in Latin countries?
  (Mr Morley) I have been to the odd Latin country, it is true, yes. There are some countries better than others, it is certainly true. It still applies in any country in Europe, you still get exaggeration.

Dr Turner

  699. Understandably you are saying it is good for us to have a steady growth. Do you have any concerns that we have started so far behind in organic production compared with other European countries?
  (Mr Morley) We have come from a low base, it is true, Chairman. We are accelerating and we have gone from the bottom of the European league to about mid way in the European league in relation to our production. I think we have gone from 0.8 per cent in 1997 to around about 2.7, hitting 3 per cent of production in about three years. We have quite accelerated production in terms of the increased output and it has moved us quite a way up the European table. I have to accept we have some way to go.


 
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