Examination of witness (Questions 680
- 699)
WEDNESDAY 8 NOVEMBER 2000
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY
680. When will we expect that?
(Mr Morley) The Rural White Paper will probably be
out in the next week or so.
Mr Drew
681. Just a quick one. Earlier we talked about
research and development, it tended to be skewed towards crops.
Now, clearly you know various claims are made, just to quote one,
certainly the Soil Association said that organic dairy farmers
were less likely to have a breakdown due to TB. Now I know that
was very heavily criticised by conventional farmers but does it
not, again, bring us back to the point that there is a need for
some very urgent research on the animal side, the husbandry side,
and maybe some of these issues about animal welfare do need to
be properly examined and if there is some good news let us hear
about it and if there is some concern let us have that broadcast?
(Mr Morley) That is absolutely right. Of course that
is an issue I think that the TB panel that is being set up could
quite legitimately examine in relation to the animal husbandry
and the way they are reared. As you know, of course, the NFU have
chosen not to participate in the TB panel at the present time
and I think that is a mistake. I very much hope they will reconsider
that and it gives them the opportunity to address exactly those
kinds of points that you have raised which are very important.
Mr Opik
682. How have you developed your training and
advice programme?
(Mr Morley) For the organic sector?
683. Yes?
(Mr Morley) We are funding a number of the organic
bodies which provide training and advice. There are also special
conferences and seminars, some of which we support and some of
which we do not. As I was saying, Chairman, under the English
Rural Development Programme we have a particular budget line for
training and education in the rural economy and there is no reason
why the organic sector could not benefit from that.
684. Has any of that been specifically earmarked
for organic training and advice?
(Mr Morley) Of course the new budget does not come
on stream until April.
685. Right.
(Mr Morley) There has been, within the review of the
organic conversion scheme, money put into that to pay for training.
There have been training schemes provided.
686. Is that earmarked specifically for organic
and small processors?
(Mr Morley) In that budget it is, yes.
687. Will you be doing the same again in April?
(Mr Morley) I think in April if the different organic
bodies bring forward proposals to us in relation to training schemes
we would look upon those sympathetically and, as I say, we do
have some funding for them.
688. The clock is ticking for them to make that
submission to you?
(Mr Morley) Yes.
689. The Soil Association does quite a lot of
this already. Is there any concern by Government that they are
likely to train people towards their aims rather than the Government's?
(Mr Morley) That is their choice. If they are providing
training programmes which are not Government supported then, of
course, it is entirely at their discretion the concept they wish
to put into it.
690. You do mention them in your document, paragraph
26, and the implication there is you do endorse the helpline.
(Mr Morley) Yes, we do. We do fund the helpline and
we do endorse it, yes.
691. Do you check what they are doing in that?
Are you satisfied?
(Mr Morley) We do take a close interest in what they
are doing and the way it operates. We are satisfied with the way
it is being managed.
692. Do you get any feedback on the usefulness
of the advice available to farmers?
(Mr Morley) Yes. There are a whole range of seminars
and meetings around the country, many of which I attend myself.
Sometimes I am a guest speaker and it gives me an opportunity
to talk to people and get their feedback. Of course there is a
wide range of views. Generally speaking, the courses that have
been laid on by the various bodies I think have been very much
appreciated by those people.
693. Finally, do you have any kind of network
where best practice can be shared amongst organic farmers?
(Mr Morley) Yes, we are trying to disseminate best
practice through the Ministry. We use the internet very extensively
and our website in MAFF to actually disseminate information and
information is also disseminated through the various organic bodies.
The Elm Farm Association, for example, does an awful lot of work
on that.
694. It sounds to me that you are fairly satisfied
that you have enough of a strategy for advice and training.
(Mr Morley) Yes. I think the strategy is there and
the framework is there. Of course there is always an argument
about making funds available.
Dr Turner
695. Can we return to international and EU considerations?
Earlier on we referred briefly to the Article 14 Committee which,
according to the document you submitted to us, has oversight of
implementation of EU standards—in the words of the briefing
you sent us—". . . meets six or eight times a year
and discusses a wide range of implementation issues". There
is a wide perception among UK farmers that we in fact over-egg—I
think you said over-goldplate—regulations. Do we have any
information, other than talking about it, any actual evidence
which allows you to say we know the EU is, in fact, implementing
the same standards with the same sort of rigour across the EU?
(Mr Morley) Yes, there are one or two small examples
there. For example, the new Poultry Directive coming out. I think
UKROFS has applied a set of higher standards than the EU Directive
there. For example, this issue of stocking density for outdoor
systems, there is a ten year derogation in the EU Directive and
UKROFS has gone for a five year derogation. It is one of the areas
I am a bit concerned about because I do not think that particular
stocking density is science based. I worry about that a bit and
it is something we want to have ongoing discussions about with
the EU.
696. The sort of statement we get from farmers,
and I heard this several times last week when we were doing visits,
is there are some countries you can ask for organic produce and
it somehow comes in the quantities you want. The implication is
that there may be certification bodies but the checks are not
good enough, the produce could cross the line and be exported
and called organic. That is what farmers believe.
(Mr Morley) Yes.
697. People sitting down in Brussels or somewhere
and discussing it is one thing, actual on the ground checks and
validation of people is another. Are there any validation checks
and follow-ups or audits taking place?
(Mr Morley) There are checks and validation audits.
It is of course the responsibility of the Commission. If the Commission
agrees an EU standard then first of all the responsibility to
apply the standard is on the Member State. It is the Commission's
responsibility to make sure that Member States are abiding by
the regulations which they have set. I know you get these stories
that different countries ignore the rules and do not do anything.
Of course there are examples of this. It can really be exaggerated.
Generally speaking you get countries like Sweden, Austria, Holland,
Denmark, these are not countries which are going to approve of
shortcuts in relation to the size they apply. They are very keen
on standards, they are very proud of the way they apply this.
I think in all fairness we can have confidence on this. When I
have an opportunity abroad, and I am on holiday, I do look at
what other people are doing. They have no idea who I am. When
I go walking I do look at sheep flocks and see whether they have
double tags on them, I am a very sad person actually. You do find
people are complying and in some cases, of course, some European
countries are complying with various regulations in a way that
we are not in the UK and we have to sort some of these issues
out. There is a lot of exaggeration in relation to what other
countries do. That is not to say we should be complacent and it
is not to say that examples may exist and, of course, we do need
to make sure that all countries are applying their standards properly.
We need to make sure that the EU, which in the end does have a
legal overview, does use that overview to spotcheck in order to
ensure that things are done properly.
Mr Mitchell
698. Do you walk mainly in Latin countries?
(Mr Morley) I have been to the odd Latin country,
it is true, yes. There are some countries better than others,
it is certainly true. It still applies in any country in Europe,
you still get exaggeration.
Dr Turner
699. Understandably you are saying it is good
for us to have a steady growth. Do you have any concerns that
we have started so far behind in organic production compared with
other European countries?
(Mr Morley) We have come from a low base, it is true,
Chairman. We are accelerating and we have gone from the bottom
of the European league to about mid way in the European league
in relation to our production. I think we have gone from 0.8 per
cent in 1997 to around about 2.7, hitting 3 per cent of production
in about three years. We have quite accelerated production in
terms of the increased output and it has moved us quite a way
up the European table. I have to accept we have some way to go.
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