Examination of witnesses (Questions 260
- 268)
TUESDAY 7 DECEMBER 1999
DR PHILIP
DALE and PROFESSOR
ALAN GRAY
260. Presumably you would also have to have
controls on farmer saving of seed as well?
(Professor Gray) Yes.
261. Because the risk would be that having released
the seed into the farmer's hands, the farmer might choose to grow
his own seed from that particular crop and then use it in other
ways, so what I am highlighting is there is a range of things
where if there is a genuine concern about segregation, there will
have to be tight controls and protocols to have an outcome that
would be acceptable to those who are concerned about it.
(Dr Dale) Which there are already for producing certified
seed.
262. I have indicated there would have to be
some more.
(Professor Gray) They would be of the same order of
magnitude for the same crops I would imagine.
263. No, I have highlighted that there would
have to be individual controls based on the processes through
which that crop went to achieve the outcome that is being suggested
for the tolerance level of the item on the shelf. You would have
to have an individual set of controls related to that crop and
its process if it was going to go through. I have also indicated
there would have to be controls on the rotation system which perhaps
are not in place now, and also on seed sale.
(Professor Gray) But those controls are there for
certified seed. You cannot grow oilseed rape for certified seed
in a field where you have grown swede, rape or turnip for the
last five years. I do not know the detail of the rules but there
are rules covering these. Apart from the separation distances
there are rules to do with the husbandry of the crop and so on
which have effectively proved to give us these levels.
264. But the regulatory framework I have touched
upon is not in place at the moment for these.
(Professor Gray) For the GMs, no.
(Dr Dale) Can I just come back to that. I think it
is really what has just been said in a way. It is the way the
crop is processed. If it is purified sugar then there is no chemical
way of distinguishing whether that is GM or not. So if we take
the ideological view that sugar from the GM crop is GM and should
not be mixed with that from a non-GM crop, it is pretty well impossible
to test. Unless you have some way of testing it, you cannot really
police it and in the end it will depend very much on policing.
You need to have DNA and protein to be able to detect whether
you have got a product of GM.
Chairman: We will look at these issues in a
little more detail next week. They are important issues. Thank
you for your comments. Mr Curry?
Mr Curry
265. This is about the conduct of trials. Oilseed
rape seems to be the villain of the piece. An enormous amount
of this conversation is about oilseed rape because it pollinates,
it blossoms, and, secondly, because it is the first crop of the
year for bees as a matter of fact. Out of that comes a practical
problem which I posed at the end of the session last week. I have
got two labradors. There are public footpaths across all the fields
where I live and my wife is Chairman of the Footpaths Committee
so we are going to keep them open. If you are in the middle of
an oilseed rape trial and I walk across a field and some of that
blossom rubs off on my garments, or if my dogs go chasing into
the fields after pheasants because that is the time of year when
the birds are nesting, and then I take them for a six-mile walk
and three or four miles down the road, what does this do to a
trial? What does this do to crops where my dogs might subsequently
go? Do you have to close off the fields where you are having trials
to get valid results? What are the implications of this sort of
involuntary spreading? I keep the dogs on a lead but even that
will not help.
(Professor Gray) I hope you keep your dogs under control.
266. If you knew how reluctant farmers were
to keep footpaths open, you would realise.
(Professor Gray) It is part of this tail[3].
Your dog is here somewhere, taking this pollen a long way. Whether
it is going to make a cross-pollination will depend on how tall
your dog is and whether there are receptive female flowers of
rape in the field he goes into. It is part of this incredibly
rare sequence of events.
267. Are we going to have to produce a whole
set of rules, as it were, relating to the conduct of trials in
order to make sure we have got the trials as viable as possible?
(Dr Dale) I would answer that by saying if in the
risk assessment one is concerned about that rare event, then it
is telling you something very significant about the gene and it
should not go out. It is telling you that that gene is a major
hazard. So what I am saying in a round about way is that the ones
that are allowed through the regulatory process—
268. It would not matter.
(Dr Dale) It would not matter if those rare events
happened.
Chairman: It seems you have reassured Mr Curry
and certainly his dogs and I am grateful to you for that as I
am grateful to you for everything you have said this afternoon.
I have found this morning fascinating. We could have gone on much
longer. If when you come to read the transcript of today there
are things you wish you had said you have not said, or things
you have said which you think on reflection you should not have
said, we are very open to receive additional memoranda from you
highlighting those issues.
Mr Curry: We did not ask the question about
wildlife and bio-diversity.
Chairman: We may also take the liberty of looking
through things that on reflection we would have liked to ask you
about and have additional correspondence. Thank you very much,
gentlemen. We are very grateful.
3 Note by Witness: (pointing to the diagram
[not printed] appended to the memorandum.) Back
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