Examination of witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
WEDNESDAY 27 OCTOBER 1999
MR ROBERT
AYLING and MS
JENNIE PAGE
100. I shall be asking about merchandising in
a moment, but just as a very small point, before I go on to my
main questions, you mentioned the LEA visits and the fact that
we will be informed about when they are going to take place. Can
I extend that invitation and ask you to inform all Members of
Parliament and not just Members of the Committee?
(Ms Page) Yes, of course.
101. People beyond this room have said to me
that they would be interested if their own area is going to go
there. It is a small point, but I would hate to see the privilege
of the Dome being the preserve of just this Committee.
(Ms Page) Our experience to date is that the local
education authorities and library boards are very proud of—and
are making a great deal of local PR about—the fact that
they are coming to the Dome and when they are coming to the Dome,
and the creation, construction and design of the work that they
are going to put on in the Dome. It would be very surprising if
they are not notifying their local Members of Parliament and Members
of the European Parliament, but I can assure you we will circulate
all Members of Parliament with a diary of when those days are
so they can be aware for when they make their own arrangements
to come to the Dome.
102. Official suppliers. You and I have had
correspondence over this, and I would like, if I could, just to
clarify a couple of points. What criteria do you put on the choice
of suppliers? Is price the primary condition? If it is not, what
is?
(Ms Page) Quite clearly, raising money through official
supplier arrangements is a well-known and well-established part
of all sponsorship programmes and you will find it used on everything
from the Olympics through to other one-off events—mainly
sporting events. It would have been counter-productive for the
Dome to set its face against that source of income and, indeed,
that method of providing supplies to the Dome. We have had wide
discussions with individual companies that have ended up as official
suppliers—and, indeed, with their competitors. It is never
a straightforward process. Quite clearly, some companies are more
interested than others in being at the Dome. Once you have chosen
one in a particular sector then, clearly, everybody else is ruled
out. As far as we are concerned, we have made it absolutely clear
right from the beginning that any supplier in the Dome, and any
caterer in the Dome, is only allowed to charge the public the
normal high street price for whatever goods are on sale if they
are selling direct to the public. Of course, some of our official
suppliers are behind-the-scenes suppliers of things like IT equipment.
So we have balanced out both the need to make sure that there
is supply on the site with a sensibly commercial attitude towards
raising money.
103. I accept the point you make about those
types of things, but, on a slightly different tangent, it is to
do with people that are offering their goods up for you to use
free of charge within the Dome. In particular (and I am not going
to mention the name), you and I have had correspondence over a
furniture company that has actually felt that they were offering
something for nothing, they did not have a fair chance of offering
their goods and you were more prepared to pay to have another
company coming in doing what they could supply for nothing.
(Ms Page) What we have found in various instances—and
I do not think we should be talking about the particular case
you and I have corresponded on—is that there are a number
of companies who would like to provide things to the Dome for
the sake of the association which they can then subsequently claim.
Very rarely have we found that it has been possible for that deal
to go forward if the company is not a fairly substantial one.
It you take furniture as an example, we have an enormous amount
of furniture in the Dome and its provision, on the basis of the
quantities that we need and at the speed with which we need it,
has rarely been within the competence of the smaller companies
that have made the sort of one-off offers of the sort that you
suggest. So we have, taken all in all, at that level, had to be
prepared to pay, making very fierce competitive noises about the
advantages to be gained by anybody who indeed does supply the
Dome, rather than take very kind offers, which of themselves could
not necessarily satisfy our total demand, and would then leave
us with a smaller package on which we would then have to negotiate
prices.
104. That is very clear. On ticketing and the
numbers that Mr Ayling was talking about, you mentioned earlier
that your survey said 11 million people certainly planned to visit
the Dome. I have been to Paris many, many times and I can honestly
say I have seen the Eiffel Tower but I have not been up the Eiffel
Tower by choice since I was about seven. Surely, a lot of those
people might say they are going to see the Dome but the Dome can
be seen from many aspects—from the air, from the river or
whatever. How can you say that—or perhaps you have got further
information—those 11 million people are intending, if they
can, possibly to buy a ticket and go into the Dome? You said "to
see the Dome".
(Mr Ayling) The question that I believe was asked,
Mr Fraser, was whether a ticket had already been bought; whether
the respondent would be going but had not yet bought a ticket
or whether they would be probably going but had not bought a ticket,
so there was a clear implication that it was a purchased visit.
So I am confident, on that basis, that the 11 million is the sort
of base level of certain or probable demand. My own feeling is
that this is a very high level, and I think the possible level
above that, plus the overseas visitors, plus children—who
are not included in these figures—shows that the potential
demand is a high one, which is, of course, very good from the
point of view of selling tickets. What we must now do is ensure
that as far as possible the demand is spread across the 366 days
of next year and that we maximise the take of tickets so that
we can achieve our budget targets.
105. Just a final point, if I may, about ticketing.
You have talked about not being able to give us specific information
about ticket sales, which one accepts for the reasons you have
described, except for one thing: in the commercial world—and
may I just take the example of, say, an airline—I `phone
up because I can get an offer stating I can go to Paris on a fixed
price and my wife says "It is a great idea, we will go for
the weekend" and I ring up, for example, British Airways,
and I find that the tickets are sold, but the lady says to me
"You can go another time". You do the same when you
buy your theatre tickets. I happened to take my children to The
Lion King and I went through five dates before I got a date
because every time they said it was full I thought "If I
do not buy tickets now I will not get to go." I am convinced
that, often, a way of selling something is to say "I am sorry,
we are sold out" because then you start selling other dates.
If you keep that information private, (a) I do not understand
the concept of that because with your commercial hat on that is
not what you do, and (b), how can you take advantage of that by
cross-selling on to other days?
(Mr Ayling) Mr Fraser, I could not agree with you
more. I think judicial use of that kind of message, as part of
our selling programme, is a very good way to stimulate demand,
and, obviously, if people call our telephone sales organisations
and want to buy a ticket for a particular day and they are told
that that day has been sold through that organisation, we will
do everything we can to encourage the sale of another day. However,
I think that is slightly different from having a public campaign
of constantly announcing, from the company itself, the number
of days which have been sold out. I am not saying that we will
not make this information available if we think it is a sensible
way of stimulating demand, but certainly from the point of view
of what you are told when you are telephoning us we will make
use of the fact that we have sold out days or, perhaps, even "It
is looking very full for that period, why don't you come the week
before? That looks like a better period". Tell people what
the situation is to encourage them to come at a time which is
going to suit them and suit us, to spread demand as evenly as
we can across the whole year.
106. Can I, therefore, ask for our Chairman,
perhaps, to request that you send us, if it is possible, in confidence,
information on where you are to date?
(Ms Page) If I may, Chairman, of course we did provide,
in confidence, some information up to about ten days ago, and
it was included in the confidential memorandum that was sent to
you. We can, of course, send you a further piece of information
which updates it, but I can tell you, on the record, that it is
in line with where we expected to be going on that basis.
Chairman
107. Perhaps you could do that periodically?
(Ms Page) No problem.
Chairman: Including after the opening.
Ms Ward
108. I would like to come back to a couple of
issues that were raised when we came to the Dome yesterday. The
first one relates to mini cabs. You will remember that I raised
it with the Minister when he came before us last week. I am a
bit concerned that you are going to have unlicensed cabs coming
into the Dome, dropping people off and still being able to pick
up people and take them back out again. The Minister talked about
a permit when they leave; that they will have to have some identification—more
than an aerial—to show that they are a bona fide mini cab.
How do you see this working?
(Ms Page) This is a complicated area, and I hope you
will excuse me if this may be a lengthy answer. The first point
to make, of course, is that the local authority has passed a resolution
to have a Traffic Exclusion Order in relation to the roads surrounding
the Dome. That Order is not yet in force but we expect it to be
in force in the next few weeks. That Order prevents any vehicles—other
than permitted vehicles—entering those roads. Permitted
vehicles are buses, coaches, heavy goods vehicles, taxis and mini
cabs and vehicles with a permit. There is a problem, of course,
in identifying a mini cab. There is no nationwide system which
requires mini cab drivers to carry any form of identification
to demonstrate that they come from a registered mini cab service.
It is, therefore, impossible for us to rely on any material information
within the car of a mini cab to demonstrate whether or not this
is a locally registered mini cab driver. What we can do, in practical
terms, is to recognise that many people will come to the Dome
by mini cab—they, perhaps, are people from the locality
where black cabs do not ply for trade with the same frequency
as they do in Central London—and those mini cabs will be
able to drop their passengers off. There is no facility for mini
cabs to wait to pick up casual people who might be waiting. There
is, on the other hand, a taxi rank for black cabs. We also know
that people will, possibly, ring when they plan to leave the Dome
and call a mini cab from a distance to come and pick them up.
That will be entry to the site by the mini cab pre-booked by the
customer and we will look to ensure that those mini cabs have
the necessary exit permit to get off the site, like other vehicles
which come in for comparable purposes. However, what we cannot
do is run a scheme to license mini cabs or to identify mini cabs;
all we can do is operate the exclusion order which is being put
in place by the local authority with the agreement of the police.
109. What is to stop an instance of my colleague
taking me in a car to the Dome and claiming, as he gets to the
gate, that he is a mini cab, and dropping me off? You do not have
to have any identification to show that you are a mini cab.
(Ms Page) No, that is the law of the land.
110. Would it not be possible for you to operate
a system with your own exclusion zones within the Dome area, to
say that if you are not a licensed black taxi cab or a licensed
hackney carriage with plates (so, obviously, outside of London
where they do have plates) that they have to apply for a permit
beforehand? That cab companies have to apply to NMEC for a permit.
(Ms Page) Frankly, I do not believe that that is implementable
or, indeed, operable on a wide-scale basis. There is no doubt
that the local mini cab firms—which we know and which, indeed,
are frequently used by visitors to the Dome in its construction
stage—are companies which we can have an understanding with,
but it would be invidious if somebody chose to come via a mini
cab which they had picked up locally in Lewisham or Bexleyheath,
which just happened to not be a mini cab firm that we knew, for
them to be denied entry to the Dome. We are talking about a circumstance
in which a bona fide visitor to the Dome with a ticket could be
turned away because the mini cab driver happened not to have a
piece of paper with him. I do not think, from the point of view
of the Experience, which is desperately keen, of course, to make
people feel welcome when they come to the Dome, that that is the
right approach, nor do I feel that it is something we could undertake
in operational terms, given both the restraints on cash and on
manpower within which we work. I do not believe it would be a
very large problem. I think it is an area in which, in actual
fact, we are going to have to watch and see how it works when
we get the Traffic Exclusion Order into operation.
111. I am pursuing this because I am concerned
about the access mini cabs have. I think this is a prime opportunity
to set a standard in London that safety is paramount. Some of
these cabs that are unlicensed, frankly, are not mini cabs but
are just individuals deciding to ply for trade. The Dome should
be looking to the future about that policy. However, I recognise
that that is difficult, and I will pursue that with the Minister.
Jennie looks very pleased with the thought that I will pursue
that with the Minister and not with her! I will go on to another
issue, which is on Millennium Eve and Big Time. The information
that you gave us yesterday suggested that Big Time will come to
an end at what I would consider quite early—at around 2
am. I would not expect to see my bed much before the dawn on that
day and I think that I am probably not unusual in that. On that
basis, is it right that you should be looking to wind down activities
for Big Time at 2 am?
(Ms Page) There are two sorts of activities that will
be going on after midnight, quite clearly. There are those that
are closely associated with Big Time and organised by NMEC and
the other London partners, and there are undoubtedly going to
be a large number of commercial organisations which are also open.
We could keep, certainly, the fair which is planned to take place
in the Mall open longer, were it to be agreed. We have, in all
of this, worked very closely with the emergency services, security
services and the police and the transport authorities, and their
initial advice was that we should aim to wind down between 2 and
2.30, bearing in mind that London has to pick itself up and start
the world all over again when dawn does rise on 1 January. However,
I do believe that the new Minister for London has agreed to ask
the emergency services to look again at their advice to see whether
or not they feel that adequate and appropriate cover and adequate
and appropriate transport can be provided in that, say, 2 to 5
am period, so that if people want to go on partying in Central
London they can do so.
112. It is likely that people will not go home
at 2 when you wind down your celebrations.
(Ms Page) That is my feeling as well.
113. In that case, there is going to need to
be a planned system of transport so that you do not have a great
rush on to the buses or on to the tubes, or whatever trains are
running, at a given time, and is phased through from between 2
and 4 or 5 in the morning.
(Ms Page) The original plans, of course, do provide
for a phasing down between midnight and 2 for exactly that purpose.
If we were to be in a situation where the entertainment continued
longer, then clearly the same principles would have to apply.
I have to make the point that while I can see that commercial
operations—and that includes the fairground operators who
are going to be running the fairs in the Mall—could very
reasonably take a view that the market was going to be there for
them to stay open, the amount of grant which the company has from
the Millennium Commission is quite clearly not enough to keep
everything up and running that is being paid for through grant
and subsidy from sponsors right the way through the night, so
there may be some financial issues to do with exactly what is
done and when, as well as the practical ones.
Mr Wyatt
114. Mr Ayling, maybe it is unusual for a politician
to say this, but I would like to congratulate you and your team,
Jennie and everyone, because two years ago no-one would say that
you would definitely raise £150 million. You took an enormous
amount of flak from every side of British culture and you have
done it, so well done.
(Mr Ayling) Thank you very much.
115. I would like to ask about the television
on the day, televising Big Time. Is the action, as it were, from
about 7 o'clock on New Year's Eve, is that a live event continuously
on television? If it is, where is it? Is it shared across all
the screens or is it just on one broadcast? Where are you with
all that?
(Ms Page) We were hoping to make an announcement in
the next week or so about the broadcast relationships that have
been working very closely with Sky, which is, of course, a Millennium
Experience sponsor, and also with the BBC and ITV about the coverage.
These are very complicated and lengthy negotiations, not least
because, of course, all of them have partnerships internationally.
We believe that somewhere in the region of 150 different broadcast
companies world-wide are now in agreement about the coverage and
the access that each will take from others' footage. We believe
that it will be available very widely on television. It has been
anticipated that the total audience could be between 1 and 2 billion
world-wide. Quite clearly, each of the programme makers will make
their own choices as to which bits they cover, but we have ensured
and we have always worked on the basis that while the Dome opening
celebration is not a listed event, in the terms of the broadcasting
regulations, it is treated as if it is a listed event; in other
words, it will be accessible to everybody.
116. So you will have one signal and then broadcasters
can choose what they take from it?
(Ms Page) There will be live feed, yes.
117. Excellent. On the ticketing, if you are
sharp and you have a very, very fine Internet site, which again
I would congratulate the designers on as exceptional, but there
is a website called lastminute.com and a lot of people
now have worked out that, in fact, even to get under the Go prices
or to get under EasyJet, you can go very quickly and even get
a discount there. So it is a matter really of whether the lastminute.com
culture is going to be on site on a daily basis; so that when
you are a tourist or when you think, "It is a nice day, maybe
we will go," can we quickly go to the Net and access this,
or is that not possible?
(Mr Ayling) I think the lastminute.com culture
is excellent and it is transforming business. Lastminute.com
itself is an excellent organisation but it is a remaindering organisation.
It is an organisation which will take the unsold inventory from
the theatres and transport companies, whatever it is, and dispose
of it at distressed prices. We hope never to be in that situation.
But I do take your point about being slick in the use of the Internet.
We want as many people as possible to buy through our Internet
and we are going to keep an eye on it, keep modifying it, and
make sure that it is working as well as it possibly can.
118. Can you tell us a little bit about the
legacy. Have you reached an agreement with English Partnerships
on the division of the spoils at the end of 2000?
(Mr Ayling) No, we have not. The two organisations
are working extremely well together. A group of four people, Sir
Alan Cockshaw and Lord Stevenson, Sam Chisholm and myself, from
both organisations, are working as a joint committee to make recommendations
to the Government, after we have seen the bids which come in from
the competition which has been announced at an appropriate time,
but I do not know when that is going to be. There will be a suitable
and fair apportionment of the proceeds to represent the value
of the assets which are being contributed from both companies.
So that is a decision which remains to be taken.
119. Do you think the sale of the Dome would
be enhanced if the tube station was called the Dome?
(Mr Ayling) I do not think we would be revealing any
secrets if I did not say we rather shared the Committee's view.
It would have been tremendous if the station was called the Dome.
But we do understand the practical problems which were associated
with making that change. If you look at the tube maps on the tube,
it says: "The Dome for the Millennium." I think that
is good. It might have been better had we started before to have
called it the Dome but there it is, the decision has been taken.
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