Examination of witnesses (Questions 53
- 59)
THURSDAY 17 FEBRUARY 2000
COUNCILLOR CHRIS
HEINITZ, COUNCILLOR
LYN BROWN,
COUNCILLOR BRIAN
KNIGHT, COUNCILLOR
PAUL PORGESS
and MS GRACE
KEMPSTER
Chairman: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you very much indeed for coming to see us today. We much
appreciate your being here. As you know, since we announced our
inquiry, there has been a very great deal of press comment on
the future of libraries. I am pleased that today, unlike last
time, there are some journalists here to follow up what their
newspapers have written about libraries. You may be unaware that
in order to speed things up we no longer have opening statements
so that if you have prepared an opening statement no doubt you
can find ways of obtruding it into your responses to the Committee.
Please, anybody at the table, feel free to answer questions as
you feel inclined.
Mr Fearn
53. The Library Association has told us that
librarians are no longer at the top table of decision making in
councils. Do you agree with this statement?
(Cllr Heinitz) I do not think it is either cast iron
one way or the other. We tend to have corporate departments rather
like the Government has corporate departments. There is not a
librarian sitting in the Cabinet. There is Chris Smith sitting
in the Cabinet. We have multi-disciplinary departments, some of
which are led by librarians, some of which have been led by museums
people and so on. I do not think that is the main relevance. I
would point out that the Library Association harps on about their
so-called glass ceiling, despite the fact that very eminent librarians
have risen to being both deputy chief and chief executives of
local authorities, let alone heads of leisure services or heads
of cultural services. I do not think that is an important issue.
I think what is important is that the advice of chief librarians
is getting through to members before they make decisions.
54. What is coming through from local councils
to you as the LGA? Are they saying that there is a dearth of books
because of the book fund being cut time and time again, or what?
(Cllr Heinitz) There is considerable concern about
the effects on library services of cuts in local government expenditure
as a whole over many, many years. You will be aware about the
reductions that have been made in local authority budgets. As
an indicator, my authority has lost 25 per cent of its budget
in real terms over a period of 15 years. That has led to cuts
in virtually every service and one of those is library services.
I have to say initially when the cuts were being made libraries
tended to be protected more but, as the cuts bit deeper and deeper,
there were no services that were left out of those cuts. We are
deeply concerned, yes, about the level of book funds and the level
of many other parts of the library service. Book funds are only
one part.
55. Is that now affecting the quality? It will
affect the quantity of books because we have been in a few libraries
very lately. In my own libraries in Southport, I notice that there
are gaps on the shelves now. We have had book sales and this sort
of thing but it still does not plug the gaps. Are we losing quality
of books now?
(Cllr Knight) No. Our quality is being maintained,
very much so.
(Cllr Brown) We are taking books off the shelves,
not because of our book budgets being cut but because we have
found out that it does increase the numbers of issues off our
shelves. We are reducing the numbers of books that are on the
shelves in order to increase our book issues. Our book issues
are being increased against the national trends. We find it is
simply because we are using the techniques that book sellers use
to market the resources that we have so people are more likely
to use those resources than otherwise. It does not mean to say
that the quantity of books is not available. The quantity is there
but on our shelves we see gaps basically because we believe that
is the best way of promoting the books that we have and the resources
we have.
56. I am looking for someone to answer about
the quality as well. There are many people who go to libraries
who still want quality and special books. Are we cutting those
out or are they still there?
(Ms Kempster) As a manager of library services, it
is about the quality of choice that people enjoy at the front
end of the service. In any library you walk into, approximately
a third of the total stock will be in the homes of local people,
being used. I think it is a rather mixed picture if you look around
the country and the ability of three things, for local authorities
as library services to achieve discounts, and there are some examples
across the country of consortia buying by many local authorities
which helps to gain that value for money. The second is about
being able to use the stock fully by looking at things like reader
development, where one might celebrate different aspects of the
stock and see the book arriving on the shelf as not the end of
its journey. The book being read is the end of its journey. There
is a mixed picture with some very innovative work going on, particularly
in making the book stock something that delights and is dynamic
in local people's lives.
(Cllr Porgess) In my authority we spend on books in
the top 25 per cent of the councils, but we have small libraries
and therefore the books have a very large turnover, so we try
to maintain the quality through purchases.
(Cllr Heinitz) In my own authority, the quality of
materials being purchased and the quantity of materials purchased
has fallen dangerously low. My authority recognises that and is
looking at ways of dealing with it, but when I tell you although
I represent a metropolitan authority it is a metropolitan authority
that is made up of a large number of very separate communities,
it is not like an inner city; it is actually quite rural. The
expenditure in maintaining a large network of branch libraries
has meant that the cuts have tended to be in the book fund rather
than in closing libraries.
57. You state in your submission that you welcome
the new technology. How is that affecting the future of libraries?
Do you see it as revolutionary or will people still demand and
want the books on the shelves always?
(Cllr Heinitz) That is one hell of a question for
a short session here. First of all, there will be no replacement
for books. Can I just invite you to imagine the scenario of curling
up in bed with a Jane Austen on a VDU, which indicates the fact
that the book is a wonderful type of material which will not be
replaced as such. There are other areas where things can be done
more effectively. My shorthand answer is that the vision of what
libraries are there for does not change. New technology is able
to deliver that vision of what libraries are there for more effectively
than ever before. It does also beg the question that there are
many libraries around the country that are single room, very small
libraries, that are unsuitable for delivering what new technology
gives us the power to deliver. My dream is that every branch library,
and therefore everyone's library, will be able to deliver the
information that people used to have to travel miles and miles
to a central library to obtain before.
Chairman
58. The point I would like to make is you see
some empty seats around this horseshoe today. That is because
several of our Members are serving on legislative standing committees
which are meeting simultaneously with this Committee. Unfortunately,
both the Labour and Conservative whips are being very stringent
about attendance at those committees. I would not want anybody
to think that colleagues on the Committee who are not here are
neglecting their interest in this subject. Secondly, the notion
I have is that the Internet and CD-Roms are of enormous value
in pursuing knowledge. Before I came in this morning I got some
information off the Internet about the author Hayley Leversen
which I was not able to get from any of the reference books in
this House. Nevertheless, the point about that kind of material
which I admire and use is that to use it you need to know what
you want. Then you can go for it; whereas one of the very great
pleasures of books, even reference books, is that in looking something
up you find something else that you did not know you wanted and
therefore, while each of them has a part to play, neither of them
ought to displace the other.
(Cllr Heinitz) I totally agree. What I would point
out is the library's role, in a society which is becoming more
and more of an information society, is to ensure that we do not
divide society into the information rich and the information poor.
That means—and the Government has recognised it through
training and the New Opportunities Fund - librarians will have
a huge role to play in assisting people to access (a) the information
they need and (b) helping them define what that information that
they need is.
(Cllr Porgess) I would agree totally, and it is happening.
59. Libraries provide a central role in communities
not simply for books but for other things too. What is your view
of something that this Committee has looked at in previous inquiries
on other subjects whereby libraries can be focal points for citizens
to be able to use the new technology to deal with problems with
government and local authority agencies? That is, sit down and
deal with them directly rather than complain, send letters and
make telephone calls and perhaps not get anywhere.
(Cllr Knight) That is a very valid point. I represent
a very rural county. Without doubt, the local library is the centre
of community life. In our libraries we have DVD access, videos
for hire and we also have access centres whereby the public go
in and they can access LINNET, which is the Lincolnshire Net,
and find out what all the other libraries have. They can book
books on that service. It costs them 75 pence to book a book and
to know exactly where it is and when they can get it. I agree
with you completely that the local library is the centre of information
and dialogue in a community, bearing in mind that a number of
small, local shops are closing. They now travel to the local supermarket
where there is no social dialogue at all and the library is taking
that position. It is a very, very important asset to rural life.
(Cllr Heinitz) That is a view from a very rural county.
Now let us turn to Councillor Brown, who comes from a very deprived
London borough.
(Cllr Brown) But getting richer. That is the line.
We obviously are using our libraries for democratic renewal purposes.
We see it as a central point for advice and information for all
of our communities and our citizens. It is seen as a very friendly
place, a neutral place, where people go who are not necessarily
taking out books but for them to get advice and information. As
a council, we are developing a local service centre policy and
service so that people who want to access the council at any point
on any subject or other agencies as well on any subject can do
so via the local service centre. The local service centres that
we are developing are attached to the library. The library is
developing its basic function of providing advice and information
and giving people access to information on local, democratic governance.
|
