Examination of witnesses (Questions 103
- 125)
THURSDAY 17 FEBRUARY 2000
MR HOWARD
BERNSTEIN and COUNCILLOR
CLAIRE NANGLE
Chairman: Thank you very much for coming
down today. We are most grateful to you for making yourselves
available at this inquiry. Manchester is, of course, one of the
great centres of libraries in this country and we thought it would
be useful to hear from a major authority about the running of
libraries, problems, plans, expansion, the lot. Mr Fearn wants
to start.
Mr Fearn
103. Good morning. The plans for Manchester
Central Library have been criticised as the destruction of a resource
which is of regional importance and a service which has few equals
in the country. How would you respond to this point?
(Cllr Nangle) The cultural facilities in the whole
of the city and that includes the Central Library are critically
important to us as a City Council. We believe that they underpin
our strategy to position the city in a European context and also
recognising our regional role and, in particular, the sub-regional
role that we have in terms of cultural facilities. We have sought,
as this Committee is aware, to place culture and sport at the
heart of our regeneration strategies and I can say quite categorically
that if any proposal to withdraw mainstream services from the
Central Library had ever been presented to the Council certainly
the Labour group and the Labour Party would have rejected it.
In fact, the case is that the libraries' budget and that pertaining
to the Central Library is going to be increased in line with inflation
next year. There will be efficiency savings which the Central
Library will have to find in the order of somewhere around one
per cent. That is clearly less than the Government's target under
the auspices of Best Value. I can absolutely reassure you that
library expenditure is increasing and also expenditure on other
aspects of our cultural facilities is also increasing, in particular
expenditure on our art gallery which is due to re-open after extensive
rebuilding in around 18 months' time.
104. We have received a rather hard hitting
letter from UNISON which ends up by saying "These proposed
cuts would seem to make a mockery of City Council attempts to
market Manchester as a European City of Culture. And if they go
ahead, future generations will inherit a cut back, dumbed down
and run down library service." I presume you would disagree
with this, would you?
(Cllr Nangle) I think that some people have been very
mischievous. Quite clearly we are coming up to local elections
and the silly season of politics and the sillier the opposition,
the sillier the season. Lots of people have been misleading members
of the public. As I have indicated before, the libraries' budget,
and the budget for the Central Library, is due to increase in
line with inflation somewhere in the region of 2.1 per cent which
I believe we have highlighted in our paragraph 1.2 which we have
presented to you in written evidence.
105. What effect do you think charges will have
on the Central Library facilities?
(Cllr Nangle) We are very limited in the range and
extent of charges that we can introduce. Clearly there has to
be a review of charging for overdue books etc. We currently lose
a lot of money through people not bringing books back. The level
of theft from all of our libraries, and from the Central Library
in particular, is exceptionally high and we are determined to
reduce the level of theft, and to take action against people who
deliberately steal public resources. As I say, we are quite limited
in the scope of charging because we are regulated by various Acts
of Parliament. I do not know if Mr Bernstein wants to add anything
specifically on charges.
(Mr Bernstein) No.
106. Have you cut the book fund this year? Is
there a proposal to cut the book fund?
(Cllr Nangle) The book fund year on year has been
used, quite wrongly in my view, to balance the budget. Certainly
from LGA evidence given previously that appears to be quite common
across the country. Our expenditure on the book fund is far greater
than most other local authorities. The range of services provided
by the Central Library is far greater than most other local authorities.
We are the only local authority to have a Chinese Library, for
example, and one of only two libraries in the country to have
a specific European Information Centre. Certainly the lead member
for Libraries and Theatres is very concerned that the book fund
has been used as a sort of catch-all budget cut when efficiencies
in the managerial running of the Central Library cannot be found.
It is absolutely my view, as lead member for Finance, that efficiency
savings in the order of one per cent should be able to be found.
Quite clearly the book fund should be used as an area of last
resort.
107. It is because in many authorities it is
a cinderella service really and truly. They always take from the
book fund to balance the budget, £200,000, £300,000,
it goes on and on and on and it has done in your authority as
well as in my authority.
(Cllr Nangle) With expenditure of over £10 million
on libraries, and 52 per cent of that on the Central Library,
I personally would not see this as a cinderella service in Manchester.
I think that is significant funding. We have also expanded the
service recently. I was very interested in comments that other
Members of the Committee made about looking at libraries in different
ways. All too often we see libraries as physical entities. We
see them very much as the Victorians saw them, there is very little
thinking out of the box. I have come to this subject very late
and it seems that people come with very rooted ideas of what libraries
should be. A colleague from the LGA was rightly pointing out earlier
that it is relatively straightforward, although not easy, to access
different sorts of funding for other cultural institutions. We
have been very successful in gaining Lottery funding, European
funding, but it is very difficult to do that for libraries. What
we have done in Manchester, and certainly in my own ward, under
the auspices of the Moss Side Youth Powerhouse, is take an institution,
which is a sports hall, which is a youth club, which is a creche,
and put a library in there. That has been phenomenally popular
with young people and it has got a computer suite as well which
is in the same room as the books. It is very popular. What we
have done in another part of the city where we had a crumbling
library, which would have been very expensive to renovate, is
take the books and the library and put it into a local school.
The usage in that district library has grown massively compared
to any of the other libraries around the city. That is a clear
lesson to us that libraries do not have to be located in dedicated
buildings. I am very excited by the possibility of locating libraries
in places where people go. There is absolutely no reason why we
cannot have books in supermarkets; there is absolutely no reason
why we cannot have books in neighbourhood offices, in housing
offices, in social services buildings. The idea that it has to
be a dedicated building just has to be wrong, especially when
public services are so stretched.
Mr Fearn: I think you have got the right
idea. Thank you, Chairman.
Chairman
108. The figures for usage of Manchester libraries
are quite amazing. I see from this document that a member of UNISON
handed to me that there are one million visits to the Central
Library each year and among young people there are 64,000 registered
users below adult age, including 20,000 teenagers and young adults,
and over 6,700 children's books were borrowed in 1998-99. That
is to your enormous credit. One of the things that I find from
my constituents, not simply on library services but on many public
services, like the museums, is that while we are very proud in
Manchester of the services that we provide, there is some resentment
at the use of them by people outside the city who do not contribute
to the local tax base and, therefore, to the maintenance of the
services. That being so, certainly I cannot think of anybody in
my constituency who would object to your making charges to businesses
outside the city for using the enquiry services. What I am sure
that people in Manchester and all of those outside Manchester
who admire the service would want to be assured of is that residents
of the city will not have to pay for services which they now get
free and that, in addition to that, the services for residents
of the city will be maintained at their present level.
(Cllr Nangle) Absolutely. I can absolutely reassure
you that is the case. One of the reasons why we have such a popular
library service is that we spend far more on the library service
than many other core cities. We spend on average nearly £21
per head compared to a core city average of nearly £15. We
spend significantly on our library services. The take-up of library
services within the boundaries of the city is patchy. In more
affluent areas usage is very high and in less affluent areas the
usage is very low. What we need to do in those areas is to consult
not just the users of the service to find out how we can improve
it but also consult the non-users of the service. Under the auspices
of the New Deal for Communities in East Manchester we are looking
at how we can utilise new technology to combat social exclusion
and to bring people into the library service. It is not the case
that you can access new technology just by computers, we are looking
at possibilities which already exist of people accessing that
via their television sets. Almost everybody has a television set.
We are working with a company to enable people to get the kit
free so that they can access that. On the other point that you
raised about the taxation base of the city, effectively that is
absolutely the case. It is the case for most large cities, but
particularly Manchester and I think particularly Newcastle as
well who act in a regional capacity. We clearly do not get any
special funding for the Central Library or, indeed, the art galleries
or any other regional infrastructure. That is something that we
are aware of and we budget for clearly. We would like it to be
different but we know the realities of public funding and clearly
we have a duty to maintain those regional and, indeed, national
and international facilities out of our budget at the moment.
109. Could I ask you just three questions which
I am sure people not simply in the City of Manchester but outside
it will want clarification on. There has been a major national
campaign which has been reported in the press about the future
of the Henry Watson Music Library. In this Best Value Review,
in paragraph 8.3.3 it says: "Create an audio-visual lending
service incorporating printed music in the room currently occupied
by general readers. This would incorporate the existing audio
loan material, video from all departments and as much of the printed
music as could be accommodated. The emphasis would be on multimedia,
new formats and digital materials." I take it that is not
a substitute for the Henry Watson Music Library, that the Henry
Watson Music Library will remain absolutely in tact?
(Cllr Nangle) Yes. I have several points to make about
that. What we want to do is to restore the Henry Watson Music
Library to its place on the ground floor where I understand it
was originally located. The Best Value Review has never been presented
to members and, as I indicated in response to the first question,
were that presented to members the position of the Labour Group
and the Labour Party in Manchester would be to oppose any closure
of the Henry Watson Music Library or, indeed, any of the specialist
libraries contained within the Central Library, such as the Chinese
Library. I understand there is a management proposal to reorganise
services. We currently have 15 desks which is far too many. The
consequence of having too many desks is that the Visually Impaired
Unit in particular is often not staffed at all. That is clearly
unacceptable to us and unacceptable to management of the library
as well. As I indicated at the beginning, the campaign has been
somewhat perplexing because there has never been a proposal, and
indeed it was recognised in the Manchester Evening News
a few days ago when it said: "Musicians and music lovers
were triumphant today after council chiefs announced that they
would not close the city's renowned Henry Watson Music Library."
and a little later on it says: "But today's meeting of Manchester
City Council was told that there had been no such proposals...."
A campaign spirited out of the ether for reasons that are very
local. It is very unfortunate that a lot of people who care very
passionately about the service have been unnecessarily alarmed
and for what reason who knows?
110. Then there is the question of staff, both
specialist and general. Do I take it that there will be no reductions
in the specialist staff for the Music Library?
(Mr Bernstein) Yes, absolutely.
111. My constituents are interested in jobs
and people in the city of Manchester are interested in jobs. Could
you also give some reassurance on staff levels in the library
service?
(Mr Bernstein) On the first point, I can give an unequivocal
assurance that there will be no reduction in mainstream services
within the Central Library and, more particularly, no reduction
in specialist staff support in terms of those specialist facilities
within the library. Equally in the way in which we look at the
management of our services, not just in relation to the Central
Library but the way in which we improve accessibility and penetration
within communities throughout the city in terms of library services,
obviously we are always looking for maximum efficiency and integration
in terms of services as well as staff. I can assure you that there
will be no major reduction in staffing levels. Fundamentally what
we are looking for is more efficiency in the way in which services
are provided.
112. Another concern that has been expressed
is reference to the disposal of books. I take it that all libraries
are disposing of books the whole time. People go and buy, as it
were, superannuated books. I take you have got nothing more in
mind for book disposal than simply the routine and tradition and
you are not going to start weeding out the books, you are going
to go on taking into account the problems of the book funds in
every part of the country and also falls in the borrowing of books?
I take it you have no special plan to reduce the stock of books?
(Mr Bernstein) I have not heard of one and, if I have
not heard of one, I have certainly not presented it to the members.
113. The other thing is I take it also that
while of course every local authority has got to work within budget
limitations, nevertheless maintenance of services at the centre,
which everybody wants, is not going to have an adverse impact
on services in the libraries around the city, the local libraries?
(Mr Bernstein) None at all. Indeed, if I can just
make the point that no savings or efficiency savings have been
put forward this year in relation to all of our district libraries,
none whatsoever.
Mr Maxton
114. Can I come back to this metropolitan role,
if you like, because coming from Glasgow I have the same problem
because Glasgow is essentially what one might term a metropolitan
city. In other words, it serves a much wider area than just the
area of the city itself and yet services have to be provided by
the city and not by the area as a whole since we wrongly abolished
regional councils in Scotland. Can I have a look at something
related to that which is what I would term the role of the Central
Library, or in Glasgow the Mitchell Library, in terms not just
of providing services with books, a lending service, but actually
collecting, collating, cataloguing and storing the written resources
of the local area. For instance, if a famous MP wishes to give
you all of his papers, you would be able to take them and catalogue
them and use them, is that right?
(Mr Bernstein) Yes.
115. Do you see that as one of your roles?
(Mr Bernstein) I do. More particularly, one of my
own personal objectives is to look at ways and means of integrating
the archive services within the Greater Manchester County which
used to be a county function, as I am sure the Chairman will recall.
Since the abolition of the County Council we have had an archive
service which I do not believe has been properly integrated within
the mainstream function of local government. That is a personal
objective which we wish to pursue over the coming months. My answer
to your question is yes.
116. And do you have a wide collection of things
of this nature?
(Mr Bernstein) Yes.
117. How accessible are they?
(Mr Bernstein) Completely accessible.
118. To anybody?
(Mr Bernstein) To anybody who walks into the library.
Mr Maxton: Anybody who walks into the
library can say "I want to see the Gerald Kaufman" papers.
That is a mind boggling thought, we will leave that aside.
Chairman
119. The quantity is absolutely unbelievable.
(Cllr Nangle) And the quality.
Chairman: I have had problems with the
House of Commons' authorities on storing them here.
Mr Maxton
120. But that is possible?
(Mr Bernstein) Yes.
121. I do not have one session of questioning
where I do not mention IT. Are you in any way putting these sorts
of records on to some form which is then accessible not just in
the library itself but is actually accessible to others right
throughout the world? I do not know how many Manchesters there
are in the world.
(Mr Bernstein) Many. I think there are at least seven.
122. Presumably there are sometimes people in
those towns who want to have access to the information that you
have in your library?
(Mr Bernstein) Yes.
123. Can you make it accessible? Are you working
towards making that accessible?
(Mr Bernstein) That is an objective, yes, very much
so.
124. Are you allocating funds to do it or is
it at the expense of something else?
(Mr Bernstein) No. When the Chairman referred to the
Best Value Review earlier, as Chief Executive I was very interested
to hear the report described in that way because I had never seen
it. It was an internal document within the libraries which was
providing a way forward in terms of how a Best Value Review should
be structured and should be organised. The Best Value Review on
our library services has yet to commence and when it does commence
one of the key issues that we will need to address is precisely
the sorts of ways we can enhance and promote the acceleration
of those programmes and those initiatives which are so important
to increase the accessibility not just of the Central Library
services to those who work and visit Manchester but also the accessibility
of the services to communities throughout the city.
Chairman
125. Have you got any plans specifically relating
to the Commonwealth Games? Are you looking at how the library
service and other services can work in with the Commonwealth Games?
(Mr Bernstein) Yes. It is part of the Legacy Programme.
"Let's Celebrate" is going to be an integrated cultural
festival of which libraries will be a fundamental part.
Chairman: I do not think my colleagues
have got any other questions so I would like to thank you very
much indeed.
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