Examination of Witnesses (Questions 253
- 259)
THURSDAY 16 MARCH 2000
MR MATTHEW
EVANS, CBE AND
MR NEVILLE
MACKAY
Chairman: Mr Evans, Mr Mackay, I would
like to welcome you very much here today. I think I ought to declare
an interest, namely that Mr Evans has made it possible for two
of my books to be available in libraries as well as in all good
book stores!
Mr Maxton: Could you name them so they
are on the record!
Chairman: Mr Fearn?
Mr Fearn
253. Good morning. The Local Government Association
claims that "education, education, education" transfers
and can be thought of as "schools, schools, schools".
What will you be doing to ensure that the Department for Education
and Employment are aware of the educational role of libraries
themselves?
(Mr Evans) I think one of the missions I have as Chairman
of the MLAC is to try and link in the two government departments
most concerned with libraries and education, DCMS and DfEE, and
I have spent a great deal of time at the DfEE talking with them
about the importance of libraries in their plans for Lifelong
Learning and all their educational initiatives and I have initiated
with Tessa Blackstone the work that is being published today on
how the relationship should be established between those two government
departments to make absolutely sure that every time an official
or minister in DfEE talks about education they think about libraries.
Also I am co-chairing a committee with Michael Wills, MP, at DfEE
which is co-ordinating ICT policy within that Department and,
more importantly, rolling out learning centres in deprived areas.
It is very encouraging that whenever these centres are talked
about libraries are there at the top of where they should be.
So I think we have made very, very substantial progress in the
last four years and the relationship between those two government
departments in this area is absolutely crucial.
254. So in deprived areas, for instance, are
you going to set up something new entirely or use existing buildings?
(Mr Evans) In some areas it may be necessary to build
new buildings because there may not be the buildings that are
able to take these learning centres, but the hope is that in most
deprived areas existing buildings will be found that can be converted
into learning centres and the expectation is that the library
will be the place where these learning centre will exist in many
areas because, as I am sure you have been told, the library is
the place where people who wish to learn want to go because it
is not like going back to school which has a stigma or a further
education college; it is an absolutely neutral place where the
librarian is trained to welcome and help learners.
255. Thank you. We heard an eloquent description
from Libraries for Life for Londoners of the many potential hazards
of introducing IT in libraries. Are you confident that you have
accounted for all these hazards?
(Mr Evans) Without quite knowing what they said the
hazards were—
256. Upgrade and maintenance costs, I think.
(Mr Evans) The revenue side of networks in libraries
is very important, the training of staff is very important, and
changing the culture within the library to accommodate this new
technology is also a hazard that has to be overcome, but I am
absolutely confident that the plans we have drawn up can be implemented
successfully in public libraries.
257. Who actually provides the training courses
for this? Is it the local authority that does it?
(Mr Evans) At the moment money has been allocated
through the New Opportunities Fund for training librarians and
teachers and the best way, the best methods of using this money
to do this training are being worked out now by Chris Batt, who
I think has given evidence, who is in charge of rolling out the
public library networks. The training is an absolutely critical
part of this because the whole thing could go very wrong, as certain
initiatives have gone wrong in the educational world, if teachers/librarians
are not trained.
Mr Maxton
258. Can I start briefly on that. It is not
so much teachers not being trained, it is teachers essentially
being reluctant to take on the new means of learning. That is
a major problem with the net.
(Mr Evans) If I could disagree, if that is permissable.
ICL did an experiment in Basingstoke where they dumped new technology
on schools and it failed in year one because the teachers were
unable to train the children. What happened in years two and three,
which is very interesting, is that the children trained the teachers.
They were not unwilling; they just did not pick it up.
259. Children will always train teachers in
this rather than the other way round. The point I am making is
we get rather hung up about training in technology. In almost
in the same way as I drive a car, I do not know how the motor
car works, there is a grave danger with computers that we are
concerned about how the damn thing works rather than what we can
use them for.
(Mr Evans) Yes.
(Mr Mackay) Can I just add that there have been a
number of very successful schemes run in public libraries over
the past three or four years which have sought to introduce computer
technology into the library and I think in all of those cases
they have worked very successfully principally because the librarians
have recognised the need for them to understand the opportunities
that IT can deliver to them and look at ways in which they can
use the technology to deliver the sorts of services that they
provide, so there is a very encouraging track record of librarians
in particular wishing to grasp the technology in order to improve
the services that they can provide to the public.
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