Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 277)
THURSDAY 16 MARCH 2000
MR MATTHEW
EVANS, CBE AND
MR NEVILLE
MACKAY
260. Can I just say to you, however, that I
think the key there is not the training that that librarian has
had but the fact that the librarian start by understanding that
she must know about it and it is important, and that is more important
than whether or not he or she gets full training as such. It is
the mind set, if you like, that matters. Can I come back to the
point that Mr Fearn was making about "education, education,
education" and "schools, schools, schools" and
the role. You made the point that libraries were at the top of
the list. Is it not a fact that learning resources are the key
and that libraries are a part of those learning resources but
increasingly, unlike the past, not the whole or the only resource?
(Mr Evans) Yes, I would agree with that. What I was
suggesting was that the place that the learner would wish to go
and feels most comfortable in is the library. I am not for a moment
suggesting that the library is the only place. I think what we
will see is learning centres in shopping centres, as we have already
seen in Tower Hamlets, the very interesting plans there, and as
you know in Sunderland they have one in the Stadium of Light.
But you are right.
261. Arguably six years from now if the Government
achieves its aim of having every home with digital television,
the home will be the biggest learning resource for anybody.
(Mr Evans) My own view is that learners will still
need teachers, whether they are formal teachers, librarians or
librarians renamed as information navigators, which is the jargon.
I think it unlikely that the British population will wish to stay
at home buying goods on the television, learning on the television
because people tend to be rather sociable and one of the great,
great assets of the public library is that it is also a community
centre and I think people will wish to leave home to do things
with other people. I think the idea of people just living in solitary
confinement doing their shopping and learning—
Chairman: In some cases it might be desirable!
Mr Maxton: He is suggesting me, I think.
Chairman: I was not suggesting you; I
am ready to name you!
Mr Maxton
262. I think that is absolutely true but people
will develop other social ways of working rather than necessarily
being in the library.
(Mr Evans) Absolutely. We were hearing a moment ago
about possible co-operation with the BBC. If this new body, which
has already started talking to BBC Education about a possible
partnership, if this partnership were to work, a lot of the digitised
content which is going to be produced would be delivered through
the BBC Channel into homes but also into libraries.
263. But in terms of finance it is this constant
balancing of should libraries be spending money on books or should
they be spending it on IT? You may say it is not a choice we ought
to be making, we ought to be able to do both, but the harsh facts
of reality are that that may not be possible. Where do you think
the balance should be?
(Mr Evans) I think it is going to be different from
anything you have just said. There will be a book budget and increasingly
part of that book budget can only be spent on electronic material
because in academic publishing and medical publishing the book
is disappearing, it just will not be there. It is not and/or,
it is the book budget and increasing that and the librarian making
the choice as to whether they spend it on two delivery mechanisms,
one is print and the other is electronic. What we must move away
from is the notion that there is a rivalry here between the book
and electronic—
264. I am quite clear there is none but there
are some people who still see libraries as books and buildings.
(Mr Evans) I think they are in for a terrible shock,
speaking as a publisher.
(Mr Mackay) I think what is interesting, looking back
at the sorts of libraries that have developed information technology
resources over the past two or three years, is that they have
been staggered at the extent of public demand for those services.
That has helped stimulate demand for the book-based services as
well and in many cases the local authorities concerned have looked
at the library service in a totally new light and they have realised
it is not a matter of investing in either books or technology
but in fact the investment is in both because that is part of
the new integrated, holistic library service which their public
require.
265. It does not necessarily mean, however,
keeping all the libraries that we have had in the past. You always
know the outcry there is when a library is threatened with closure.
Surely in the modern age it is not necessary that we keep all
libraries?
(Mr Mackay) I think a lot of people who have already
given evidence to this Committee have made the point very cogently
that there is a historical legacy sometimes with the nature of
the buildings and the location of library premises and I think
in some cases that can be re-visited in order to come up with
a more sensible and strategic allocation of library resources.
Clearly that has to be done in a way that does not devalue or
undermine the overall quality of the library service that citizens
of a particular area are receiving.
266. As we are moving to the days when we will
shop on the Internet and it will be delivered to our house, is
there any reason why in library terms we should not develop systems
whereby somebody is requesting a particular book, puts the request
into either a local library or central library, wherever it might
be, and that book is then delivered and then of course collected
so you can be sure you get it back too?
(Mr Mackay) To some extent that already happens with
particular types of library services. There are outreach or outbound
services for the disabled, for example, which operate on an arrangement
similar to the one you have described. If you are looking at ways
in which public services can improve the quality and range of
delivery of those services, absolutely, there is no reason why
that sort of scenario could not be developed further, and I am
sure it is.
267. It may be publishers that do it rather
than librarians?
(Mr Evans) Yes, absolutely.
Chairman: But I think one of your responses,
Mr Evans, to Mr Maxton is very important because libraries and
museums and galleries too are not simply repositories of information
or works of art; they are part of the social fabric of the nation
where people can meet each other, interchange, and so on. Going
to the Tate Gallery on a Saturday afternoon is a wonderful experience
simply to see how many people are there. If you take libraries
in my constituency like Longsight library we have a meeting room
there for all kinds of local organisations. We also, Mr Maxton,
have a computer teaching room as well.
Mr Maxton: We have got one in the House
of Commons.
Chairman: We have got an extremely good
library too. Mr Faber?
Mr Faber
268. Could I ask a few questions about the remit
and the role of your council. Obviously we have had concerns expressed
to us about the breadth of the remit you have. The Library Association
is concerned "that the cultural focus of MLAC will not be
attractive to many parts of the library and information sector".
Can you allay their concerns that there is a synergy between these
museums and libraries which fits comfortably?
(Mr Evans) I read their evidence and I think what
they were arguing, which is perfectly understandable, is that
here they have a body, the Library and Information Commission,
which is pretty dedicated to libraries. It is now moving into
a wider remit bringing in museums and archives and their concern,
and they have expressed this concern to me, is that libraries
are not going to be the focus of attention as they have been for
the last four years. I have said that we know what the agenda
is with public libraries because in a way we have been inventing
it over the last four years and we will continue to push very
hard for everything that we have been pushing hard for and the
matters that have been brought forward, the People's Network,
the research and the international side of the LIC, will be brought
forward into the new organisation for the benefit not only of
libraries but of the other two domains, as we call them, archives
and museums. That is one response. The other is that I think that
everybody acknowledges if you look at museums, libraries and archives
there are things they can do together which are very very important.
The application of ICT is one of them, looking at them as an educational
resource is another, and looking at them, as the Chairman was
just saying, as a cultural resource which encourages people to
go out and to go to and have great experiences is also very important.
So you would link in the library to the museum and the joker in
the pack is the archive because we know what libraries hold and
we know what museums hold but very few people know the enormous
riches that are there in Britain's archives and the possibility
of digitising the archives and bringing them out to the general
public is very very exciting and actually will be the glue that
holds together the libraries, museums and archives so we know
what the concerns are (and concerns are being expressed by the
museums world as well) and we do not anticipate any of the difficulties
that are being suggested.
269. I understand and agree with that. The Library
Association also said in their opinion you would have to work
with a pretty broad range of government departments. They give
a list which terrified me. I certainly would not want to deal
with every one of them. How broad do you see your governmental
obligations or do you see yourselves as being only answerable
to Culture, Media and Sport?
(Mr Evans) As with the Library and Information Commission,
although the DCMS has been our sponsoring department we have spent
a great deal of time developing contacts and talking to other
government departments and obviously DfEE is the absolutely crucial
one not only because of the education policy but also because
it has got the most enormous amount of money which DCMS has not
got. We have talked and had dealings with the DTI —
(Mr Mackay)—and DETR in particular given their
local authority remit. I think the point is that although we have
a mechanical relationship with DCMS because of the way in which
the money is provided to us, our remit spans all government departments.
270. You have slightly put your finger on it.
As you say, you have contact with DETR through local government.
The Local Government Association has expressed concern about resources.
You have put your finger on the problem in terms of DCMS resources.
Are you confident that you are going to be able to get the extra
resources you need to operate across these areas rather than the
single one? Do you need those extra resources?
(Mr Evans) If we do not get extra resources it would
have been rather pointless forming this new organisation because
the nightmare scenario is that we deliver less than the two organisations
that have been merged together did before the merge. I think it
depends on the new Council coming up with exciting and innovative
projects which are well-argued, well-costed and are put to government
and then we hope money would come. The model obviously is the
People's Network where that was done and we have got, as you know,
the resources to implement it. Obviously digitisation is going
to be of crucial importance to us and the Committee and the three
domains in the next period.
271. The Minister described you last year as
the "new champion" for the libraries community. That
is a little bit of a heavy burden to carry. To us as a Committee
and to individual Members of Parliament, the issue of library
closures comes back again and again and again. We have heard many
witnesses say that they would like to have a clearer policy from
government on the issue of library closures. Whose side do you
see yourself being on? How do you see yourself fitting into this
argument?
(Mr Evans) The problem about library closures is that
it is a political debate. The chief librarian of Leeds was a very
good friend of mine before she moved off to Essex and she was
getting into terrible trouble because she had 47 branch libraries
and she wanted to close five of them. It made absolute sense to
close five of them because they were set up before public transport
or the car or whatever, but the local councillor when told that
a library was going to close in their ward immediately starts
a political whatever, so there is no rational discussion. That
is the problem.
272. That is the problem in all party politics.
(Mr Evans) It immediately becomes a political issue.
How you depoliticise, I do not know, but there are very good arguments
for closing down some branch libraries and there are also some
very good arguments for not closing libraries and I think some
of the London boroughs have been suggesting closure for the wrong
reasons.
273. I accept all that but if I could just push
you a little further. You are by your very nature going to find
yourself in the middle of this argument so you are going to need
some kind of definition of your responsibility for the policies.
As you said, it may be a political argument but you are going
to be caught up in it.
(Mr Mackay) Just to add to that. One way to take the
political steam out of the debate about library closures is to
try to develop commonly agreed and defined performance indicators,
benchmarks, standards which will enable you to take a rational
assessment about the performance or role of individual libraries
as well as groups of libraries together within library authorities.
I think the work the DCMS have begun in developing performance
indicators and benchmarks for libraries will be very helpful in
that respect. We are very happy to help them take that work forward
but they ultimately have a statutory responsibility to superintend
and monitor the delivery of the public library service. I think
they recognise that responsibility clearly and need to make their
decisions but based on drawing on advice from bodies like ourselves.
274. That is my point. You will still be in
a position to give advice. If your advice happens to support a
local community in an individual case rather than a local council,
you would not be afraid to do that? You would see that as your
role?
(Mr Evans) Yes. If I could make another point. There
are very encouraging signs on the emergence of new types of public
libraries and the Tower Hamlets example is a good one and what
is happening at Peckham is very good. Once you see these very
modern, excellent libraries it will make it much easier for enlightened
local authorities to say, "We are going to close three branch
libraries to create something like you can see at Peckham."
There has not been up to now these examples so it has been debate
in isolation.
Chairman
275. Accessibility is very important indeed
particularly with regard to social inclusion policy because if
you look at a constituency like mine where car ownership is low
and people depend on buses to get them about, then the narrowing
down of accessability to libraries is a very serious matter because
the people who do not have the resources are the people who most
need the libraries.
(Mr Evans) I agree with you, Mr Chairman, but as in
the Leeds example I gave there are branch libraries within a quarter
of an hour of each other. That is the problem I was trying to
identify. Certainly not doing anything that is going to deprive
a deprived local community of access to their public library because
it is probably one of the most important things in their lives.
276. It depends what you mean by a quarter of
an hour, Mr Evans, whether it is a quarter of an hour on foot
or by car.
(Mr Evans) On foot.
277. Because I have got two libraries within
less than ten minutes drive of each other, the Gorton library
and the Longsight library, and they are both very heavily patronised
indeed by different clienteles.
(Mr Evans) Yes.
Chairman: And with that plug for my constituency
I will thank you very much indeed and we shall move on to our
report. Thank you.
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