Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 137)
THURSDAY 2 MARCH 2000
SIR ROBIN
BIGGAM, MS
SARAH THANE,
AND MR
RICHARD PEEL
120. What is the marked deterioration in terms
of viewers? Is it a loss of one million viewers, two million viewers,
is it on news or is it the overall improvement of ITV's share
in the percentage of viewers?
(Sir Robin Biggam) It will be judged primarily on
the market share of the total news audience and that is why it
is primarily against the BBC. You have seen the figures, we have
supplied the figures. We are looking at the same information.
121. You have supplied the figures. I wonder
if I can just check with you. You say it is clear that ITV has
been successful in arresting its long term decline in peak-time
audience share. The figures that you provided to this Committee
demonstrate a decline in ITV's peak-time audience share from 36.8
per cent in the last three quarters of 1998 to 36.2 per cent in
the last three quarters of 1999.
(Ms Thane) Compared with the trend in the run-up to
the changes, that is a halt in decline. The decline was much more
rapid in the five-year period up to those changes.
(Sir Robin Biggam) The former was something of the
order of a 44 per cent share down to a 37 per cent or a 38 per
cent. They have, at least, halted that decline. In relative terms
they are doing much better.
122. They halted the decline. Do you have a
target you would expect them to reach?
(Sir Robin Biggam) Not in terms of audience share,
no. It is news we are focusing on. It is a public service obligation
we are focusing on to carry out our review. The audience share
is covered partly by diversity.
(Ms Thane) We have never, as a regulator, set any
channel target or audience share. That would be inappropriate.
What we are concerned about is the health and vitality of the
services and clearly, echoing some of the points made earlier,
it is very important that strong revenues are retained, particularly
for a service that is required to offer under its licence 65 per
cent of originally produced programmes as opposed to acquisitions.
Chairman
123. We heard from the ITN people and the ITV
people all kinds of argument about whether audience share has
risen or fallen. The statistics that you provide for us show that
in the peak hours 7.00 to 10.30 it is falling and in the peak
period up to 11.00 it has risen by 0.1 per cent. Regardless of
the reliability of either of those figures—ITV clearly deny
them—are you happy that within that the audience for the
news, as a result of what you have done, has fallen by two million?
(Sir Robin Biggam) That is what we were covering in
the review in the next month. Obviously we know the numbers but
watch the trends. I do not think it would be appropriate to take
that any further at this juncture.
124. In the document that you issued in November
1998 you said, "In the first review of the impact of the
schedule changes after twelve months to allow for a full assessment
of the impact", and you show the impact on viewers. Whereas
we heard all of these protests, you have to go into the next century—we
are in it—to find out the impact of all of this. You said
in your document approving that a year would provide an opportunity
for a full assessment of the impact in the new scheduling patterns.
May we take it from you, regardless of what Mr Hill says and regardless
of what Mr Purvis said about conundrums and having to wait and
see and all that stuff, you regard that year you provided as a
satisfactory and acceptable period to assess what is happening?
(Sir Robin Biggam) Yes. Obviously, within that year
one would be looking at trends. Earlier I covered the regional
news programmes. We expressed our grave reservations of what was
happening there in September/October time, but it does look as
if it is improving. Within the year we will look at trends, but
we intend to carry out a full review at the end of year one.
Ms Ward
125. Can I ask about that end of year one and
the changes started on March 8 last year. When do you expect to
conduct your investigation and when do you hope to conclude it?
(Sir Robin Biggam) We have been doing it on a continuous
basis and it will come to a head very quickly. We expect to communicate
with ITV in May.
126. Would you rule out, at this stage, anything
that you would not consider possible or appropriate at this stage
in terms of a recommendation?
(Sir Robin Biggam) We are not ruling out anything
at this stage.
127. So, a requirement to reinstate News
at Ten is still a possibility?
(Sir Robin Biggam) We are not ruling out anything.
I have nine commission members and all I can say today is we are
not ruling out anything at this juncture.
Chairman
128. Could I just ask you this, before I call
Mr Keen, because it is directly consequent to this. You say it
does look as if it is improving. I have this document, which you
have very kindly provided for us, from the ITC itself. If you
look at the audiences month by month for the two ITV News bulletins
you can say that the 6.30 bulletin is fluctuated, it is half a
million a month or it was in April of last year to January. The
10 o'clock news bulletin is 600,000 below that, whereas the figures
for the 6.30 news have fluctuated violently. I would say they
are still not all that good but if you look at the figures for
the 6.30 bulletin they have fluctuated, but what there has been
since April of last year is a consistent record of poor audiences
for the 11 o'clock news, or whatever time it actually does come
on. It is not wholly accurate, is it, to say that it is improving?
The 6.30 News audience has improved somewhat.
(Sir Robin Biggam) Chairman, I think I was being specific
on the regional news programmes, I was not covering the national
news. I accept entirely the conclusion you are drawing from these
statistics.
Mr Keen
129. In the rapidly changing world of broadcasting
do you think that ITV will want to retain its public service aspect
of this broadcasting?
(Sir Robin Biggam) As far as we are concerned, until
the next Communications and Broadcasting Act they will need to
continue to be governed by the previous ones. Until Parliament
determines that there is a change, as far as we are concerned
there will be no change. Within the next couple of years we will
all have the opportunity to express views. At the end of the day
the key decision will be taken by Parliament.
(Ms Thane) Could I add, I would have thought it is
important that it is not what ITV wants, in one sense, it is what
the viewers want and what Parliament wills.
130. ITV are a commercial company, so viewers
decide. We are talking about News at Ten being shifted.
That was done for commercial reasons. Do you think with the changing
world it has meant that ITV—I am not asking for your opinion—will
wish to withdraw from the public service side of the business?
Are they hanging on now, really, and not lobbying to come out
because they own ITN?
(Sir Robin Biggam) The public service broadcasting
commitments go much further than news, regional news. They go
to religious programmes, to schools, education and children. There
are a whole series of strands that we regard as part and parcel
of public service broadcasting. You need to ask ITV the question,
but I did hear Leslie Hill saying they were committed to public
service broadcasting. It is the quantum of public service broadcasting
where there may well need to be a debate as we run up to the next
Communications and Broadcasting Bill.
Mrs Golding
131. They say old habits die hard, News at
Ten had a very loyal audience. Do you really see them transferring
to news at 11.00, do you really see those figures moving?
(Sir Robin Biggam) I think given the total audience
shift between 10.00 and 11.00 it is exceedingly unlikely. To capture
at 11.00 what they were previously capturing at 10.00 would be
well nigh impossible, I think.
(Ms Thane) Neither did we give approval on the basis
that we thought the 11 o'clock news could replicate the
News at Ten audience. We did hope that ITV would be able
to, jointly with the two bulletins to match over time the audiences
that had been previously attracted to the 5.40 News and
the News at Ten.
132. I must say to you, I have never even looked
at news at 6.30, it is not in my mind that it is even there. News
at 11.00 I invariably switch off. I now turn to the Sky News
at 10.00 pm, which has taken over the name and the schedule as
far as I can see; that is where I get my news. Mr Maxton said
when we last had this debate that news watching, news information,
was changing at a rapid rate. Do you not think to alter something
which had such a loyal audience at that point in time, and given
the rapid change in news availability, was the wrong thing to
do?
(Sir Robin Biggam) It is essentially a decision for
ITV to take in terms of the balance of the schedule. They took
that decision and they sought our approval, and we actually imposed
some conditions and then said, "Yes, you can try it out and
see if it works." That is where we are.
133. It was just a case of trying and seeing,
it was not in any way in-depth about what was happening?
(Sir Robin Biggam) No, no, no. The easiest decision
was to tell them to go away, that was the easy decision for us.
The tough decision was saying, "In this changing environment
we believe you should have the opportunity to have some experimentation
to see if you can actually achieve that which you are committed
to achieving."
134. They have not been able to do it.
(Sir Robin Biggam) That is something that we are looking
at.
Chairman
135. I have two things to say on what has just
been said, Ms Thane said in answer to Mrs Golding, you were hoping
that the audience would remain pretty much as they had been, I
am not taking this in an accusation sense—if I wanted to
I would—that is what you said, yet it is down two million.
That is a lot, two million is a lot. Secondly, Sir Robin, you
just spoke about the changing environment. The changing environment
in audio-visual communication is something this Committee has
looked at consistently for a number of years, but nevertheless
within that changing environment what is significant to me is
that the audience for the two BBC bulletins has risen and risen
very substantially. There is, surely, a lesson to be drawn from
this? Ms Thane's hopes have been dashed, the changing environment
has not affected the number of people wanting to watch BBC terrestrial
bulletins, there is more of them now than there were. I simply
submit to you, with all of the humility I am capable of, which
may not be much, these are factors that you really ought to take
into account when you are considering what to do.
(Sir Robin Biggam) Thank you, we will, Chairman, as
always.
Mr Maxton
136. I am going to talk about this change in
the political scene, particularly in Scotland and less so in Wales.
The BBC are at least considering, in my view wrongly, introducing
what is called the Scottish Six, a news broadcast for an hour
which will incorporate and merge both the national and Scottish
news bulletins, so that the Scottish story can come first, if
that is the most important story in Scotland. Do you know if STV
and ITN are contemplating a similar merging programme? Would they
have to get your permission to do so and, if so, would you give
your approval?
(Sir Robin Biggam) This was actively discussed within
STV probably two or three years ago. There was talk about what
was then referred to as a tartan News at Ten. Gus MacDonald,
now Lord MacDonald, was at the fore in that debate.
137. That is why I can now attack ITV.
(Sir Robin Biggam) It never actually came through
to us. There was some discussion about it at the time when devolution
was on the political agenda, but it would need our approval.
(Ms Thane) I would not want to give a definitive answer
here, because there is something lying in the 1990 legislation
that would have a bearing on this—that is, that the national
and international news provision on ITV has to be live and simultaneous—and
therefore interesting questions arise from a sort of merged Scottish
and national and international news, in the sense that we conventionally
use those terms. I think it would present issues that we would
have to look at.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
It is a pleasure to have you here before us. No doubt we will
be seeing you here again very soon.
|
