Examination of witnesses (Questions 180
- 199)
TUESDAY 18 APRIL 2000
MR JAMES
EDE and MS
JOANNA VAN
DER LANDE
180. If you believe Scotland Yard, it is the
second largest business in the world after drugs and arms. You
dispute that?
(Ms van der Lande) We disagree. We dispute that. We
would all be very rich if that were the case.
(Mr Ede) What I would like to know is where is this
material going, the classical and pre-classical antiquities here.
We have done surveys of what the size of the market is which show
that the worldwide market might be £200 million. Where are
these other billions of pounds worth of objects going? Do we believe
in the idea of mad millionaires gloating over stuff in their basements?
One of the functions of having an open legitimate market is things
that are stolen sooner or later always come to the surface, always.
This stuff is not coming to the surface at a level of £3
billion a year. Where is it going and where is it coming from?
The Guardian suggested at one point £3 billion had
been stolen from Saqqara. Has somebody nicked a pyramid? Nobody
has produced any evidence to support these figures whatsoever.
Chairman
181. Could I just intervene in Mr Wyatt's questioning
to say that we had a meeting a few days ago with the appropriate
people at New Scotland Yard, and far from being the old-fashioned
1930s image of Constable Plod these are extremely sophisticated,
knowledgeable people who certainly impressed the members of the
Committee who met them. These people take this trade very seriously
and they do say it is the second largest illicit trade in the
world. They do say the trade is now being used by drug dealers
for money laundering. They dismiss the notion which you mention
of this trade being motivated by gloating billionaires with stuff
put away in a vault. They say it is a very widespread trade and
I take what they say very seriously indeed. I think they are reputable
and impressive public servants.
(Ms van der Lande) So do we.
(Mr Ede) It is very easy to say there are billions.
I am saying there are not. I am saying look at the size of the
trade. Look at the auctions. Look at what is being bought and
sold on the open market. That will give you some idea. I am looking
at the figures. It is very easy to say there are billions of pounds
shifting around the world annually illegally. I am saying where
is it? Clearly there is a problem and an international database
is clearly required particularly with public monuments on it and
that would solve a huge quantity of problems. The archaeological
monuments of South East Asia, for example, could easily be entered
on such a database and then there would not be a market for that
because people do not want to collect—
Derek Wyatt
182. Who would take the lead in that?
(Ms van der Lande) We would be happy to.
Chairman
183. What about things which are exported from
countries against the laws of those countries which are not alleged
to be stolen but exported in violation of the laws of the country
of origin?
(Mr Ede) We deplore that but we would ask the Government—
184. Would you trade in it?
(Mr Ede) No. I have answered that already. We do not
buy these things. I would ask the Government to attempt to put
pressure on our partners particularly in the EU, which is supposed
to be an open market, to abide by Article 28 and allow proper,
controlled open trade in goods which are legally owned by private
individuals and not simply put a blanket ban on everything any
more than we should have a blanket ban on Georgian candle sticks.
Why should we? Do we agree with that?
Derek Wyatt
185. Just lastly, as a Government we have not
taken the UNESCO and UNIDROIT Conventions seriously. Why do you
think this is?
(Mr Ede) These are very complicated legal issues and
I am not a lawyer. I was at the UNIDROIT conference in Rome. We
were the only association invited to go. It was clear that the
thing was cobbled together at the last minute and it is not a
very good piece of law. I think that is why the Government's own
lawyers have rejected it. I think that is the answer but I am
sure there are people giving evidence today who can give a much
better answer than I can. But the Government's own lawyers have
looked at it.
Mrs Organ
186. I understand your dilemma. You are saying
that the illicit trade is not as great as we have been told by
many others before today and you have said that people do not
want to buy things that are stolen and that you as a dealer do
not want to handle them, but it is going on. Are you saying, therefore,
that there are other than the major auction houses and the ten
major dealers other alternative fences going on acting as dealers
and then suddenly it percolates into the legitimate trade?
(Mr Ede) We are saying that clearly there is a problem.
We are pointing to the level of legitimate trade in this country
as being worth no more than £30 million a year. We are saying
if there was a huge volume of classical and pre-classical antiquities
coming through London these would be appearing in the legitimate
figures sooner or later. There is a problem but things come to
the surface. It is quite clear they always do. So what we are
saying is we do not believe it is a parallel trade which is entirely
illegitimate which never sees the light of day.
187. It eventually has to surface out on to
the open market for it to gain its value.
(Mr Ede) That is certainly true.
188. So at some stage there has to be an interface
between the illicit trade and dealers and purchasers.
(Mr Ede) There will be pieces on the market illegally
exported from the countries of origin. I think that is clear.
We think the reason for this is the extremely draconian laws which
seek to block everything. We would like to see them liberalise
those laws so that objects which are not of national importance
and which are legitimately owned could freely circulate.
189. If we liberalise the laws of countries
like Italy, what is going to happen to your market? We are going
to have a flood of Etruscan vases, Greek vases, all the stuff
that they have got in their warehouses and their storerooms. What
is going to happen to your market?
(Mr Ede) It is going to open a huge market to me.
(Ms van der Lande) I think it is going to make people
a lot more confident.
(Mr Ede) There is a desire to own them and Italy is
potentially one of our greatest markets of all.
(Ms van der Lande) We do have Italians who buy from
us.
190. In the basic economics of supply and demand
if you open up and liberalise the market what is going to happen
to your trade in London?
(Ms van der Lande) I think it will be a lot more fun.
(Mr Ede) I think there will be more dealers, more
collectors. It is clear that collectors like to collect things
they can collect. They do not want to collect things they only
see once every ten years. I think it would increase the trade
and an open, well organised trade could flourish in London as
it did in the 19th century.
191. If there are more dealers and it is a well
organised trade, it is obvious up to now that self-policing of
the trade is not acting in the best interests of the consumers,
if you like. If it went that way taking your argument forward
that we will be liberalising the market, more stuff on the market
and greater open trade, would you not think there is a need for
regulation of dealers and licensing?
(Mr Ede) I think there is a need for licensing. One
of the inaccuracies put forward the other day was the suggestion
there should be a threshold of £500 to £1,000 by Dr
Brodie. He does not seem to be aware that there is already a zero
threshold. We would love a £500 threshold but the Italians
blocked it.
(Ms van der Lande) Are you referring to the export
licences or the licensing of dealers.
192. Licensing and statutory regulation of dealers.
(Mr Ede) If Parliament decides that all dealers in
secondhand goods have to be licensed, so be it.
193. You would not think it was a bad idea.
(Ms van der Lande) The practicalities of it might
take some getting your head around because I think policing that
would be a very difficult task.
(Mr Ede) It is not only that. It is very expensive.
We are already bound under by a flood of regulations. We have
the European Directive. Incidentally, since that was introduced
(and it was very draconian in that it does allow source countries
to claim goods back) in 1993, Italy has not made one single claim
under European law. I would like to make that plain. We should
try to see how the existing ones are working. It is another level
of bureaucracy. We have already got import VAT. It is not much
fun being an art dealer.
Chairman
194. Why do you stay in the trade?
(Mr Ede) Because I love it, because I have been doing
it and because I refuse to be driven out.
Mrs Organ
195. If you want to behave absolutely properly
for yourself as a dealer and for your customers and whatever,
how useful is the Art Loss Register at present as a source of
information on theft and illegal export?
(Mr Ede) I believe the Art Loss Register is a good
thing and the International Dealers Association, which I am also
involved in, was the first association to require its members
to check any goods it had bought with the ALR.
(Ms van der Lande) All the auction catalogues are
scanned by the ALR. Their problem and the source countries' problem
is providing the information more effectively and efficiently.
(Mr Ede) A proper international database.
(Ms van der Lande) Whatever happens, there needs to
be more international co-operation. It cannot proceed without
that happening, I do not believe.
196. So you need more independent, authoritative
help with problems.
(Mr Ede) With an air of co-operation between the different
parties involved, the different police forces, the international
ones providing information when requested.
197. Everybody is interested, are they not,
in keeping the value of their goods to have provenance with them.
It does assist it because museums now are reluctant to purchase
antiquities without proof, but there must be a large market of
people that are prepared to buy goods that are not provenanced.
(Mr Ede) That depends how large you regard the scale
of the problem. There is a problem, we accept that, and it needs
to be addressed, but it is not on the scale that has been suggested.
I think we have produced the figures.
(Ms van der Lande) The question of provenance again
goes back to the point what do you mean by provenance. When something
has a piece of paper with it or catalogue in which that piece
has appeared, is that provenance or would you be prepared to accept
what we have said about the fact that many thousands of objects
are legitimately on the market but do not have any paperwork attached
to them for very legitimate reasons.
198. The oldest thing I have ever purchased
in my life was a cottage in Somerset that went back to the 12th
century. It was probably the most expensive thing I ever bought
in my life, but of course the advantage of that is that I did
have the deeds of the house that went right back to Medieval times
and then before that I could trace it back in local history in
the parish records.
(Mr Ede) Immoveable objects are much easier. You have
to remember that the majority of antiquities were made to be traded.
Most Greek vases are found in Italy because that is where the
market was in antiquity. These things move around. Cottages, happily,
unless you happen to be a cliff top, do not.
Mrs Organ: I take your point on that
one.
Chairman
199. We have got two more people to ask questions
and I have got yet another thing I want to ask before them. You
keep on saying that the essence and value of illicit trade are
vastly exaggerated, but a story in The Guardian—and
anybody can dismiss a story in The Guardian and highly
understandably too—states that the police say that this
is a very big trade and the police are trying to combat it. And
the British police, let alone police we saw in two other countries,
one cannot dismiss.
(Ms van der Lande) We are not dismissing them.
| 
