Examination of witnesses (Questions 200
- 217)
TUESDAY 18 APRIL 2000
MR JAMES
EDE and MS
JOANNA VAN
DER LANDE
200. The issue is whether we accept what the
police tell us—we shall be hearing from them in public before
too long—that if they had the money they would have a lot
more people on this business. So I remain unconvinced actually
by what you are telling us.
(Mr Ede) We have tried to show you figures, actual
figures. Christie's turnover £1.9 million, Bonhams, £1
million, Sotheby's in London, their turnover is a matter of public
record. It comes to £20 to £30 million. These are facts.
When people talk about billions I would like to know what evidence
they had of this. Of course everybody wants more resources, of
course they do. We want more resources. You want more resources.
201. I want more resources.
(Mr Ede) Of course you do. The police want more resources
and therefore there has to be a big problem to deal with. That
is how these things work. We are saying let us look at these things
dispassionately. Let us look at actual figures and there they
are.
Chairman: Claire Ward?
Ms Ward
202. Do you think there is perhaps a difference
of understanding of the term "antiquities" between you
and others in terms of what might form part of illicit trade and
what you class as antiquities?
(Mr Ede) We are representing dealers in classical
and pre-classical antiquities and we extend up to Northern Europe
so we are not dealing with South America, South East Asia or with
China. These are outside our remit.
(Ms van der Lande) We are simply representing that
specific geographic area.
(Mr Ede) You are making a good point there.
203. So on that basis it is perfectly possible
this trade that the police are talking about co-exists at this
cost? You are only dealing with a very small section of it.
(Mr Ede) I think that is a very well taken point.
Antiquities is generally applied to objects from Greece and ancient
Rome.
204. That is certainly what the trade understands.
(Mr Ede) Which is what we understand by it. I think
that is a well taken point.
205. Okay. So we start from the position now
that actually the police could be right, the figures we have heard
could certainly be correct in terms of illicit trade.
(Ms van der Lande) It depends what the police are
referring to, or the ones you have spoken to, and we do not know.
206. From my understanding they are speaking
about the general.
(Ms van der Lande) It would be interesting to know
of the specific area and specific number of dealers in this field
how many referred to our area.
207. Perhaps we will get that detail in due
course. You mentioned earlier that you do not believe that illicit
trade items are circulating through into the legitimate trade.
(Mr Ede) They will do to an extent, I accept that.
That is inevitable.
(Ms van der Lande) We have the same desire to stop
this from happening.
(Mr Ede) There is of course a danger that the more
important provenance becomes the more likely people are to falsify
it.
208. What are the smaller antiques dealers doing
to ensure that they are not taking part in making goods legitimate
over a period of time? One of the problems that was identified
to us when we were in Rome were goods that were either stolen
or part of an illegal export, that would disappear for four or
five years after it was known that they had been stolen, and then
surface in a legitimate auction in some way seeking to make the
item legitimate. What happens to them in the four or five years
that they are out of circulation legitimately and what is it that
we can do to ensure that dealers, if they are not in the top ten
or the auction houses, but smaller dealers are not trading in
those and using them as a currency themselves?
(Mr Ede) I think the answer to that is of course we
do not know what happens to it. If it is happening we do not know
because we are not in that area of the market. If it is happening,
the way to address that is by a very good international database
because if they turn up five years later it does not matter, they
are demonstrably stolen and they will be on the database.
209. So if somebody comes to you with an item
you are not sure of the provenance of you check it with the ALR?
Is that with every item?
(Mr Ede) We have a value threshold on it.
210. What is the value threshold?
(Mr Ede) Ours is £10,000. There is also a problem
obviously because below that level millions of these objects are
duplicated. They were made in moulds as lamps or terracotta statues,
they all look the same, they were mass produced, and the ALR does
not deal with objects that were mass produced because you cannot
tell one thing from another.
(Ms van der Lande) With certain classes of objects.
(Mr Ede) That obviously is a problem. There is nothing
we can do about that. That is just a fact of life.
211. On another subject, it is my understanding
that tomorrow I could become an antiques dealer. I could leave
this life of politics and pretend to be good at something else.
If that is the case then surely I have a requirement to have a
certain amount of self-regulation of due diligence in checking
any goods that might come to me? Do you think really that the
best way to stop or to prevent illicit trade is to have antiques
dealers who are registered and have an industry who are?
(Mr Ede) We have talked about this already. We do
feel that it would introduce an inordinate amount of bureaucracy.
We feel the best way is free movement of information. We have
information technology. We have the ability now to pass huge quantities
of information very quickly and we think that is the best way
forward. As I have said, if Parliament decided that all dealers
in secondhand goods, because this is a problem with booksellers,
stolen books, how the hell do you tell one from the other, should
be licensed, as a citizen of this country I will accept that.
I think it is going to produce a massive amount of bureaucracy.
I do not think it is the best way forward. I think the best way
forward is to freely trade and I think that is available to government.
(Ms van der Lande) And education.
(Mr Ede) And education of customs officers, more protection
of sites.
(Ms van der Lande) And of dealers as well.
(Mr Ede) You say you could set up as a dealer tomorrow.
It is almost as if you are saying you could set up as doctor,
but it is not quite the same. You could not just join any old
trade association tomorrow and I can assure you that there are
more retired majors going bust selling antiques and antiquities
than anything else. It is not that easy.
212. But I am not required to join a trade association.
That is the point. I cannot say I am a doctor because I am required
to be part of the professional bodies.
(Mr Ede) That is because you are dealing with people's
lives. You are not required to join a professional association
for 95 per cent of human activity.
Chairman
213. Nobody is suggesting all dealers in second
hand goods should be licensed. That is clearly mad. On the other
hand, is there not an argument for saying that there should be
a registration procedure for dealers whose turnover is above a
certain specified limit?
(Mr Ede) We are already; it is called VAT.
214. Yes, I realise you are.
(Mr Ede) The information is all there.
215. Everybody does that. Marks & Spencer's
register that and nobody is suggesting that Marks & Spencer
are—
(Mr Ede) Why not code the VAT?
Chairman: Well, I will call upon Mr Keen
before we move on.
Mr Keen
216. Claire Ward was saying she could become
a dealer, and it reminded me of my maiden speech in 1992 when
I said I could not slip any lower unless I crossed the floor of
the House! Could I ask why is there such antagonism towards you?
(Mr Ede) I do not know.
(Ms van der Lande) It is a cause of great sadness.
(Mr Ede) It is. I sound cross but I am actually rather
sorrowful about this. I think Lord Renfrew and his satellites
have a very good point to make, but I do not think they are making
it terribly well. I do think that they are not willing really
to have a dialogue with us. I think that is very unfortunate because
we have tried. We have not been invited, we have been specifically
excluded and many museums have been specifically excluded from
the formation of the McDonald Institute as well. It was not only
the trade. It seems to be a rather closed shop.
(Ms van der Lande) In the last five or six years I
have noticed that there has been a great movement towards different
sides, archaeologists, museum people and auction houses, and the
trade, etcetera, etcetera, all working far more closely together
with the metal detectorists who I know have been excluded in recent
years. I have had a lot of positive feedback from these different
parties to say they are glad and happy to have this co-operation.
There was a lot of antagonism between the archaeologists and the
metal detectorists and I was fully aware of that when I was an
undergraduate and I was aware of that when I started working in
this particular business. I have seen in the last few years that
that has gradually changed. There has been a sea change. The saddest
thing possible that is going to happen is that these parties will
again be driven apart because there is a lot of intimidation and
antagonism in the press not helping us solve the problem. It is
extremely one-sided. I find that extremely sad. I know people
involved on the academic side who are equally sad and are very,
very concerned about it too. I think that cannot possibly be the
way forward to create this antagonism and polarised atmosphere.
I do not know if you agree with that. The only way is through
dialogue.
217. Could I come back to the very, very early
point about the trade declining in London and moving. Why was
that?
(Mr Ede) I think that it is partly because Sotheby's
do not sell antiquities any more. There was a scandal with old
masters paintings and the department moved to New York. It was
important for bringing people into London. It was very important
for hotels, taxis, restaurants, all the rest of it, and for me.
That probably has been the biggest damage. Also self-induced is
not the right word, but because the London trade has come under
more pressure than any other that we have made more effort in
this direction than any other market. I think that is clear. If
you look at auction catalogues, it is very demonstrable now the
care they are taking with the provenance of the pieces. They are
taking it on board. It is rather like the British Museum not being
able to buy something if it is doubtful about its provenance and
antiquities auctioneers and dealers are in the same boat now.
Chairman: I am afraid we are going to
have to move on, very reluctantly, because you have given us a
lively session and we are very grateful to you.
| 
