Examination of Witness (Questions 322
- 339)
WEDNESDAY 10 MAY 2000
DR NEIL
CHALMERS, MR
LEN POLE
AND MS
SHARON PAGE
Chairman: Lady and gentlemen, thank you
very much for coming to see us today. I will call on Mr Fearn
to ask the first question.
Mr Fearn
322. Do you think it should be the aim of all
museums to make information about all their holdings and the provenance
of such holdings available to the public, including potential
claimants?
(Dr Chalmers) I personally do, yes.
323. Your organisation itself, how is it formed?
From what other organisations are you taken?
(Dr Chalmers) You are talking in relation to the Standing
Advisory Group?
324. Yes.
(Dr Chalmers) We are drawn from the National Conference
of Museum Directors, which represents the national museums and
galleries of the country; the Museums Association, which is the
professional body for the sector and the Museums and Galleries
Commission which has subsequently been replaced by what is now
called Resource, which is a government funded institution to try
and help the sector.
325. That is the repatriation for all artefacts
as well as human remains?
(Dr Chalmers) The submission we have made relates
to the requests for return of all kinds of object regardless of
what kind they might be.
326. To what extent do you think it possible
for museums returning objects to place conditions on preservation
and access upon return?
(Dr Chalmers) I think it is up to the trustees of
the governing body of each museum to consider the terms under
which they are constituted and to make a decision relating to
that. Some museums and galleries will have freedom to return.
Others will not.
327. Does that entirely depend on the trustees?
(Dr Chalmers) It depends upon the governing body and
it may, as I understand it, also depend upon other conditions
under which they are set up, particularly of course their charitable
status.
328. Your colleagues seem to want to come in.
(Ms Page) It depends on the kind of museum. The national
museums and galleries are created by statute so their ability
to dispose of objects in their collection are set out in their
founding statute. Some museums have an absolute prohibition on
disposing of any items in their collection, some museums have
greater freedom. In some local authority museums the collections
are part of the local authority, some of them where charitable
trusts have been set up then the powers are set out by their trust
instrument. All museums and galleries other than local authority
ones are also governed by charity law which obviously controls
how trustees deal with their assets and belongings.
329. Is there any logical or ethical reason
why a return should be easier for local museums rather than national
museums?
(Ms Page) Not really. Once again it would depend on
the details of how they were constituted and the basis upon which
that was set out.
330. Is there any time limit on anything? A
request that comes in, for instance, as we have been hearing before.
Some disappear, some are not adhered to. They would all have a
reply and an answer and something would happen on a request from
outside this country, say?
(Mr Pole) I wonder if I may contribute here, having
experience of a particular request being made to the Exeter City
Museum. Response was made and negotiations undertaken over quite
a long period of time such that the time between the initial contact
being made by the originating community and the date at which
return was agreed and then subsequently the return was made was
something like three and a half years in all, but there was a
continuous to-ing and fro-ing of communication during that time.
331. Why should it take so long?
(Mr Pole) A number of reasons. First of all, it is
necessary to consult with the local authority and in the case
of the Exeter Museum the museum is run by the City Council, and
to familiarise the Council members with the issues concerned.
At that time there were no such guidelines as the MGC has now
put together. Secondly, communication with, in this case, the
Tasmanian Aboriginal community and there were in the intervening
period a number of times when personnel changes took place. Once
the decision was made by the City Council, then there was some
time during which arrangements had to be put in place for a group
to come over from Tasmania to collect the material.
332. So there is no national guideline at all?
It purely depends on, in this case, the local council?
(Mr Pole) In this case that is the case, yes. As I
say, this was before there were any guidelines in the form of
the MGC guidelines that now exist. I am sure if such guidelines
as now exist were in existence then this may well have codified
our responses and perhaps help to speed up the process. Inevitably,
with the kind of consultation that we undertook and in future
with the kind of even wider consultation with the museum constituencies
that we seek to have, I do not think it would be fair to put a
time limit on that kind of negotiation.
Mrs Golding
333. Do you think there is a problem in that
all museums and all professionals do not have any familiarity
with the national laws of countries whose cultural property they
may have in their collections?
(Dr Chalmers) I think there is a problem. One of the
important things to recognise is that a lot of museums are very
small indeed and their staff are very stretched and of necessity
are focused upon their own local situation and issues. Therefore
their ability to become familiar with the laws and practices of
any particular community around the world from whom they have
objects in their collections is quite limited. One of our recommendations
in our guidelines is that there should be a resource centre to
provide additional advice and help.
334. I see that in your evidence. How would
that be funded and how would the small museums be able to contact
it?
(Dr Chalmers) Our recommendation is that this new
group Resource, which was called MLAC, Museums, Libraries and
Archives Commission, should actually fund that advisory centre
themselves if they do not wish to operate it themselves. They
should publicise it through standard museum channels so that everybody
knows that it is there.
335. Would you expect something like that to
advise both the museums and the claimants, the countries that
are claiming the returns?
(Dr Chalmers) In terms of our own thinking as an advisory
group our aim is particularly to help the museums community in
this country because I think that is where a lot of help is needed.
If that were also available to the claimant countries and communities
and groups that would be an additional benefit, no doubt.
336. Would you expect those claimant countries
to pay a fee or would you see that that should be free as well?
(Dr Chalmers) We have not made any sort of judgment
about that. That would be a detail that one would have to come
to. We would like to see the group set up in the first instance.
Mr Keen
337. In this place we have got a whole spectrum
of different opinions on all sorts of issues. Did you as individuals
feel very strongly about this and that is why you are on this
body rather than not being on it? Do you feel especially strongly
that we were not maybe doing enough for repatriation?
(Dr Chalmers) I think there is a growing recognition
in the museums community that this is an issue we must address.
I have been in the Natural History Museum for 12 years and over
that time the issue has surfaced on several occasions. Colleagues
in other parts of the museum sector feel the same. Certainly in
some museums the issue is more prominent than others. I felt it
needed addressing which is why I was prepared to go on the Standing
Advisory Group. My colleagues here will no doubt give their own
reasons as to why they were prepared to be on it.
(Ms Page) My role on the Standing Advisory Group is
that I am also on the National Museum Directors' Conference Spoliation
Working Party. Obviously that tends to be our focus of concern
rather than in the broader cultural property area. Clearly it
is an important issue for national museums and one that we felt
it was important to address actively and positively.
338. There is a movement, is there, now to look
at the whole globe and see how we can do best so that more people
can look at and understand it? Do you feel there is a strong movement
now? Is there any money available to help the nations that have
not got the facilities even to take stuff back that they would
like to have? Are we able to help the rest of the world? Is there
a move to try to help?
(Dr Chalmers) Not that I know of, I must say. I am
looking at my colleagues to see if they know of any evidence.
339. What is needed? Is there any opportunity
then to look towards this? Is there not enough international co-operation?
It sounds as if there is not.
(Dr Chalmers) There is a great deal of international
co-operation and some of that is set out in our memorandum to
this Committee. A large number of museums and galleries, particularly
the bigger ones, work very closely with institutions and individuals
in countries around the world. It is within that context that
this issue of requests for return comes up. It must be seen in
that context. It is a high profile but fairly small component
of our international relationships. In my own museum firstly we
are not allowed to return under the terms of the British Museum
Act of 1963, but we are active with at least 60 countries around
the world working with them to try and help them to build up their
collections or train them and to use the information that is resident
in their collections and ours collaboratively.
(Mr Pole) If I may say so in relation to my role as
Chair of the Museum Ethnographers' Group, I think it is true to
say that there are quite a number of museums throughout the country
who have developed and are developing relationships that link
the collections for which they have responsibility with the communities
of origin where those collections have come from. In some cases
this does mean putting in quite considerable financial resources
from the museums' own budgets to forward that work. At the same
time, and speaking in relation to work that we have done specifically
in Exeter, there is a great deal of keenness, particularly on
the part of some communities, for instance in the north west coast
of North America, in Vancouver Island, where they have raised
money themselves to promote that kind of contact. Resources, if
the will is there, sometimes appear to be available, but clearly
more resources are needed.
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