Examination of Witness (Questions 460
- 474)
TUESDAY 23 MAY 2000
MAJOR GENERAL
ROBERTO CONFORTI
460. A final question, but I would like to just
go back to a discussion we had in Italy. I am sure, General, that
you accept that British auction houses are not responsible directly
to the Italian police and, given that, in some of the specific
cases you describe to us, which as I say I will not go into detail
on, you did tell us, because I asked you, that in at least two
or three of them there was a situation where the owner of the
property in Italy was actually involved with the theft themselves.
If I can put the question, if I may, how can the auction houses
therefore be responsible for ensuring that works of art that are
fraudulently exported are actually dealt with correctly?
(Major General Conforti) My presence here today is
not to throw accusations to auction houses.
461. Accepted.
(Major General Conforti) There is evidence that the
majority of the illegal trade in works of art happens via this
financial brokering, almost all middle men. The various degrees
of individual responsibility, of course, will be ascertained by
the judiciary. However, I do believe that auction houses—I
would like to say this is based on the reputation—they ought
to be aware of this link between the first and the second illegal
trade. There are international dealers that use auction houses.
Of course it is a use and abuse kind of thing where the auction
house is not actually aware of being exploited. The dealer introduces
works of art and we do know that for instance in a second moment
by changing the name of the company or altering the previous identity,
they do buy back a work of art. In most cases they do export it
abroad or there have been cases when the work of art has gone
back to Italy, on the famous principle of the confidentiality
of the commissioner. What can they do? I believe that auction
houses ought to establish a code of practice as many others have
done. Naturally we must not forget that the main point of an auction
house is mediation but in Italy auction houses and antique shops,
antique dealers, have an obligation. Abiding by this obligation
does not mean that illegal trade will be automatically defeated
but let us say that we can put a spanner in the works. The obligation
is to enter in a register the works of art which come in and go
out of the country, the person who sells and the buyer. Since
September 1999 the Italian Government has issued a law saying
that also auction houses are financial brokers and they have the
obligation to inform certain offices, of any operation over a
certain amount of money. Of course, this is in order to oppose
any money laundering operation. In addition to this, any dealer
in Italy has the obligation to issue a photographic reproduction
to the buyer with a certificate of authenticity and origin of
the same.
Chairman
462. I would like to follow up some of the questions
Mr Fraser has put to you and some of the answers you have provided.
At the beginning of our session today you were good enough to
pay tribute to the centrality of the British art market. As I
am sure you will acknowledge, we have some of the most important
auction houses in the world which have extremely high reputations.
We take great trouble to protect their integrity. Nevertheless
from time to time it may be that objects which have been either
stolen or illegally exported will, despite all precautions, find
their way into catalogues of such auction houses. Can you suggest
any means, in addition to those which you have suggested to Mr
Fraser, whereby loopholes can be closed. Can you suggest from
your own experience of Italian law you have just described, domestic
Italian law, whether there is any legislation which we might have
in this country passed by this Parliament which would help to
protect the auction houses and the art market against the kind
of problems that we have been discussing?
(Major General Conforti) In my opinion the fact itself
that we are discussing the issue is a very positive factor. More
than in the law I would put my faith more in the code of practice.
I believe that a code of practice is stronger than a law because
quite rightly, as you mentioned, there will always be loopholes
and the loopholes will always allow a certain legal movement.
I believe that if England or Great Britain had ratified some of
the Conventions this would have made perhaps the situation easier.
I take the liberty to remind you that right now in Japan the Group
G8 are studying different situations and that will be submitted
to the attention of the individual countries. I would like to
stress this factor of co-operation, the element of co-operation
because in my opinion it is necessary to add to this study also
the illegal marketing of works of art which today interests Italy
but in future could interest other countries. This phenomenon
is not restricted to Italy. We cannot say what the auction houses
should do. If I may say, it is more a fact of creating an atmosphere
around the auction houses in order to protect them. If we want
to contrast and to fight the illegal movement of works of art
we must be sure that to begin with the legal framework is in place
and to create a structure that would allow the auction houses
to be what they are today, they are patrons of the art in a way
but they have to be patrons within the boundary of the law. We
do sometimes notice in the English auction houses an unwillingness
to co-operate and that perhaps they do tend to use the confidentiality
clause quite frequently and liberally. This is the problem we
have to face and this is why we have the judicial structures that
go on for years. This is why, also, we do not receive the documentation
we apply for. On the other hand, if I may, Chairman, one problem
that is like a spin off of the situation and in a way worries
me—because it might give the impression that England does
not trust Italy—is when we ask for the application of the
law, the Strasbourg Convention of 1952 which was ratified in 1991
by England. Every time we require documents with the works of
art there as evidence our request is hardly ever accepted or maybe
because it is feared that then we will not return the work of
art. I do hope this is not the case.
Derek Wyatt
463. Good morning. The auction houses here and
in the rest of the world, can they obtain access to your database?
(Major General Conforti) They can apply for access.
464. Do many do that?
(Major General Conforti) Up to now only from the Art
Loss Register, not from auction houses.
465. Why is that?
(Major General Conforti) During the course of an exchange
with the Paul Getty Museum I did say that our activity was at
their disposal in order to clarify the origin of works of art
on which they had a doubt themselves. But, the Paul Getty Museum
never ever filed a request.
466. Is it your view that Switzerland is the
sort of via media of the illicit trade in that it supplies
the money and then it finds its way to America and perhaps to
Britain?
(Major General Conforti) Switzerland is one of the
cross points of the illegal trade but London is too because the
illegal movement goes through London.
467. London funds it as well or the money is
elsewhere?
(Major General Conforti) No. London does not fund.
We do not have any evidence of London funding the illegal movement.
We know of some dealers but not as in Switzerland.
468. Would the simple thing be for there to
be an agreement in the EU for a register so that when you sold
a painting like you sell a car or your house you get a document
of ownership with it?
(Major General Conforti) We do have a system in Italy
where the sale of a painting or work of art has a document. It
is very useful to kind of stem the flow of the illegal movement,
it does not curb it completely but it stems it. I did say earlier
on when I was replying to Mr Fraser's question that we do have
a system in Italy.
469. Is it a public document?
(Major General Conforti) Yes, it is. That has to be
submitted on request to the police force.
470. I wonder if we could be sent a copy in
due course?
(Major General Conforti) No.
471. We cannot see a blank one.
(Major General Conforti) A blank copy, yes.
Derek Wyatt: I am glad you have a sense
of humour.
Chairman: There you are, no politician's
answers.
Derek Wyatt
472. What do you think really we need to do
as politicians across Europe? What are the political initiatives
we need to take and where do they need to be taken?
(Major General Conforti) The police force works on
the framework provided for by the politicians. I firmly believe
that at the base of everything there should be this atmosphere
of co-operation. This has to be favoured by politicians to see
what are the best tools, the best laws. We have a huge responsibility.
We do have a responsibility towards our children and behind us
we must protect the heritage that will be their heritage. I believe
it is necessary that all politicians beyond individual schemes
and laws, and on the basis of a global protection of the heritage,
harmonise and unify some principles. If Conventions are not enough
then we will welcome bilateral agreements but Conventions can
do a lot.
Chairman
473. General, can I ask you just two more questions.
It is, of course, in this country illegal for anybody to trade
in stolen objects but it is not illegal in this country to trade
in objects which have been illegally exported from another country.
Do you believe it will be of assistance if we have legislation
that makes it illegal to trade in illegally exported objects?
(Major General Conforti) Mr Chairman, England ratified
the EC Directive, as of course you know, with a law on 1 March
1994. It was the first European nation to ratify the EC Directive
and to implement it as a law where it says that a work of art
that has been illegally exported from the Member State must be
returned to the applying country, if necessary paying the alleged
owner or the person who exported. If the magistrate considers
this course of action suitable—and we should ask ourselves
what does illegal mean, whether illegal is the infraction of a
rule—then there is no reason to worry.
474. Thank you very much indeed. We shall have
the opportunity of informal discussions with you later in the
day but meanwhile I would like to thank you, firstly, for being
here, secondly for making available to us your obvious immense
expertise and, thirdly, for your frank answers and where appropriate
your frank refusal to answer. Thank you very much, General, to
you and your colleagues and to the interpreter. Thank you very
much.
(Major General Conforti) Thank you.
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