Examination of Witnesses (Questions 480
- 501)
TUESDAY 23 MAY 2000
DETECTIVE CHIEF
SUPERINTENDENT JOHN
COLES AND
DETECTIVE CONSTABLE
PENNY STEVENSON
480. Apart from a wish to double your staff
to four, what would be your one recommendation to this Committee
that you feel is missing or we could advise and say, "Look,
if you are going to do anything, please, please do this"?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) In the broader
aspect of the whole subject of arts and antiques, certainly some
form of national database.
481. So the Art Loss Register is not enough?
What is missing in that bit, since we are having lunch with them
today?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) I think, no
criticism, but the Art Loss raison d'être is different
to that from the police. At the end of the day it is commercialisation.
The police service are the police service and they are responsible
for policing thefts generally. I do not think we are as efficient
and as effective as we could be, particularly around issues such
as Due Diligence because we do not have a national database.
Chairman
482. Should it be a statutory registry, Mr Coles?
Whether it is a statutory register or not, who should be in charge
of it? Do you think you would be the most appropriate people to
be in charge of it?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) It would have
to be something that was organised at Home Office level, which
tends to suggest that it should be run by one of the national
agencies in policing, such as the National Criminal Intelligence
Service. Scotland Yard obviously deals with the vast majority
of this type of crime, but I do not think my superiors would be
pleased if I was prepared to take on everybody else's problems
as well.
Chairman: We will look after your superiors.
I just want to say to the Committee, this is the second group
of extremely important witnesses we have today and every member
of the Committee wants to put questions. We have limited time.
I do not want to limit questions, but I would be grateful if colleagues
could be aware of that in putting their questions.
Mr Keen
483. What are your views on the possibility
of changing the law so that it became illegal to import items
that were illegally exported from other nations?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) Obviously we
have a conflict at the moment in the way we do our day-to-day
business with the needs of other countries. It basically boils
down to the definition of what theft is. From the United Kingdom
point of view it has to be stolen within the context of the Theft
Act, and "illegally exported" obviously does not fall
within that category. Obviously, if there was some legislation
that enabled us to deal with that issue, we would welcome it,
but there are caveats with that, because with legislation comes
the need to police legislation, and I say that in the widest context.
You have already heard of the resourcing issues that we suffer
from. We would welcome some form of legislation, provided it could
be effective and actually achieve what it set out to achieve.
Mrs Organ
484. I wonder if you could just give me a little
picture of how co-operative the London auction houses are with
your investigations when it is of an international nature?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) Having spoken
to my officers who work directly with the auctions houses on these
types of issues, their view is that in the vast majority of cases
there is very, very close co-operation and they are extremely
helpful. If an item or particular antique is identified in circumstances
which are dubious, the houses, I am told, always withdraw them
from the auctions.
485. What about smaller galleries and smaller
commercial operations? The big auction houses have a very important
reputation to maintain, but Bond Street galleries and places like
that, what about liaison and co-operation there?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) In general
terms I think there is good co-operation. There is always going
to be the rogue trader who does not want to assist or help.
(Detective Constable Stevenson) I think generally
speaking, once somebody actually has the evidence to show that
this item is stolen and it has been correctly identified, then
whoever we approach is going to realise that they do not have
time to sell the item and, therefore, it must be withdrawn. Generally
speaking I think because the auction houses in London are those
that have their auction catalogues searched, it is within their
premises that articles are identified. I cannot think of many
dealers or galleries that we have recently received inquiries
on.
486. When we came to visit you before there
was a scenario where you explained that an officer had passed
a window of a dealer and it was fairly obvious from what the piece
looked like, because it had been cut, that it was dubious. What
happens in those situations? Do you find that you have good liaison
then and they are prepared to remove that article?
(Detective Constable Stevenson) Yes, I think so, but,
of course, I think again you have to separate whether we are actually
saying it is stolen or whether we are saying it is illegally exported.
Under the UK legislation as it stands, if a police officer comes
across property which he believes is stolen, as we would understand
that definition under the Theft Act, then he may seize it. So
that rather cuts short any other comments that the dealer may
have on it at that point. It is far more difficult if we believe
that it has been illegally exported from another country and,
therefore, the police do not have the right, at the moment, as
the law stands, to seize that item.
487. As the law stands would you, therefore,
be in favour of a national system for registering dealers above
a certain size, so that they have better record keeping obligations?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) Anything that
helps in administrating the whole business would be of assistance
to us.
488. So you would advocate that?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) As long as
it would work. Again it comes back to the issue, if we come up
with a system that is so resource intensive in terms of policing—and
I say policing in the wider context, not just within my terms
of policing—it is no good if it will not function. It has
to be something that will practically function.
Mr Fraser
489. Can you describe the Due Diligence process
that auction houses undertake and how one can improve upon the
system?
(Detective Constable Stevenson) Due Diligence was
an initiative launched with the Council for the Prevention of
Art Theft and also in association with the Norfolk constabulary
a couple of years ago. They trialed it in their area and it was
reasonably successful, so they obviously applied, through COPAT,
that it should be taken on country-wide. The aim of Due Diligence
is so that there is an audit trail to follow. What it advises—and
it must be remembered that it is a voluntary code at the moment—is
that the dealers, when they buy an item, should be aware of the
true identity of the person from whom they are buying, they should
ask for some kind of identity which proves who they are, for example
a driving licence. Ideally it would advocate that they do not
take cash, but they provide a cheque or some other kind of audit
trail for finance. This makes the whole area of policing, in its
widest context, much easier. As I say, at the moment this is a
voluntary code.
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) Taking up the
point made about the national database, if there was one central
location where Due Diligence checks could be undertaken, that
would provide for more efficiency in recovering stolen items.
490. Could you just briefly tell us about the
discussion you have had at auction houses about this particular
issue and what stage you are at in terms of how they approach
it?
(Detective Constable Stevenson) We are not piloting
Due Diligence ourselves. The Council for the Prevention of Art
Theft actually has various committees and there are certain police
officers on some of their committees who address this issue with
auction houses. One of the problems about the national database
and doing Due Diligence checks is that it is quite a fractured
system at the moment. If there was a national database, police
officers in London could become aware of a check that a police
officer in Durham has made, because one of the problems is that
if you have a dealer and they have taken in a picture and they
want to run some checks on it, they might make a check in an area
in the North of England, that is fine because the North of England
at the moment might not have any information that would indicate
that that painting is stolen, so they would only be able to give
the recommendation based on the information at their fingertips
at that precise moment in time. That does not mean to they say
that that item is not recorded stolen elsewhere.
491. Which is ultimately the problem one has,
given the information concentrating on the current vendor. As
soon as you get into the position of owner provenance it is a
very murky area. Would you acknowledge the fact that the most
difficult part of an auction house's job is establishing that
earlier provenance?
(Detective Constable Stevenson) Yes. I think, obviously,
the top 2 or 3 per cent of items that go thorough the auction
houses come with extremely good provenance. Their intrinsic value
lies in their provenance. Of course, further down the line it
is extremely difficult. I think this brings up the point that
somebody made earlier to our Italian guests, where you would issue
a passport or certificate of some kind or a piece of paper to
attach to it. The problem with that is that A, it is easily faked,
and B, what do you do? Do you set a threshold and say only items
above this level? In addition to which, if I sold a painting,
does that necessarily say that this piece of paper goes with that
painting? It is a very difficult area.
Chairman
492. Difficult areas though they may be, they
are clearly very important, are they not? From my personal knowledge
of such transactions as I am involved in, I am amazed at the lack
of information provided formally about provenance from some of
the most reputable purveyors of such goods. Mr Wyatt has talked
repeatedly about the desirability of the counterpart of a log-book
when a car is sold. Of course, these transactions do not have
the same legal implications for tax and insurance that cars do,
and therefore, it is more difficult. Would there not be something
to be said for making a requirement to provide provenance certificates
on all dealings with auction houses, or shops, or whatever, who
have a given minimum turnover, which obviously can be ascertained
by VAT returns?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) There is some
logic in that, but again, from my perspective, it comes back to
the fact that if you introduce such a system, you have to be able
to administer it. That is not a real issue directly for the police,
but it could impact on the police in the long-term. If people
are of a mind to introduce such a system, it is important that
it functions and it works.
493. I obviously accept that, Mr Coles, and
I accept also that, of course, somebody has to administer it.
Let us say it was assigned to Customs and Excise or whatever,
some functioning agency, do you think that it would be workable?
If our Committee were to consider recommending it, it would be
pointless recommending something that would not work.
(Detective Constable Stevenson) I think if you say
"within the United Kingdom" it is slightly easier and
you could recommend that all dealers above a certain threshold,
and perhaps odd items above a certain level, when they are sold
have to be issued with some kind of certificate that you would
need to have to pass it on. What do you say at that point though,
do you say, anything coming in from abroad has to be issued with
a certificate at the point that it comes in? In that case, we
are starting to apply our legislation for abroad as well, which
may be tricky. So it is fine if the dealer in the United Kingdom
has a certificate, but then you get into the provenance again.
Are we saying that we will only accept things coming in that have
already got a certificate of authenticity with them, or do we
start issuing that certificate at the time the dealer sells it
on within the United Kingdom?
Mrs Golding
494. You seem to be saying that the laws as
they stand seem to be restricting what you can do. If we make
even more laws it will still leave gaps in it, loop-holes. The
Italian said this morning that he thought that internationally
if we could establish a code of practice, that would be better
than the law because it would not leave so many loop-holes. Do
you think that is true?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) I think in
terms of any issue, if you can get people voluntarily to stand
by a code, then that is the obvious answer, but I think you would
have some difficulty trying to introduce the thing across the
whole of Europe and internationally. There are enough difficulties
now in terms of different legislation in different European countries,
and this whole issue around illegal export is an example of that.
(Detective Constable Stevenson) I think the code of
Due Diligence, while it is voluntary at the moment, is a very
good start. It is quite a young code at the moment. I think also
were there to be a successful case in court where somebody were
to be convicted of handling stolen goods, because it was seen
by the court that they had not followed down the code of Due Diligence,
and were it then to be accepted into statute, that would then
perhaps provide for that framework.
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) But only within
the United Kingdom, of course.
Mrs Golding: Yes. Thank you.
Chairman
495. Mrs Golding has just spoken about illegal
exports. You will no doubt have heard the response of General
Conforti to my question about legislation on illegal exports.
He drew attention to the European Directive, whereby an illegally
exported object must be returned on application, but, of course,
there may not be an application because there may not be an awareness.
I take fully into account there your caution, which is notorious,
about recommending things that you do not regard as within your
own area of responsibility, but from your point of view, do you
think that it would be helpful to you if there were domestic legislation
here to make it illegal to trade in objects illegally exported
from another country?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) In our day-to-day
business, yes.
Chairman: Thank you. That was as sharp
as the answers from General Conforti, and, if I may say so, with
great respect to the General, a good deal more helpful.
Ms Ward
496. The support that you have given for a comprehensive
database is obviously one that is finding some support on this
Committee. Who would fund it and who would be responsible for
it?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) This goes back
to the earlier question. Funding, if it is a national asset, has
to come nationally, which I suppose places this with the Home
Office in policing regards. In terms of its administration and
its working, I would prefer it to be within the police organisation,
but there may be opportunities to bring in the commercial sector
to assist in the administration of that system.
497. It could be commercial, perhaps with some
support from the insurance companies?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) I think I would
have to give that some thought. I would prefer any system for
policing to be Home Office sponsored and led. That is obviously
not just arts and antiques, that is any issue, because at the
end of the day it is the Home Office that has responsibility for
the policing issue. It is not necessarily a burden which we should
place on other people.
498. I would just like to go back to the point
about some form of certification for items coming into the country.
Is the problem also that the very nature of the arts and antiques
market is the fluctuating value of property, which would make
it difficult to set a minimum level in which you would have to
certificate beyond, and the fact that people would under-value
by very small amounts to enable them to not certificate, or they
would break items down into small pieces and use them on that
basis?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) It is an interesting
point and it is probably quite valid.
(Detective Constable Stevenson) We had not thought
about it from that point of view. We had thought about the problem
of identification, because there are millions of objects around.
If you tipped out a whole bucket full of identical Roman coins,
how are you going to certificate each one individually?
Chairman
499. I will repeat an example I have given in
other sessions of this Committee, which I think I may have given
to you in your mention of Roman coins. I bought some cuff-links
in the US which were alleged to be Roman coins and I asked the
shopkeeper if he could verify that they were Roman coins. He instantly
produced a certificate from the Israeli Department of Antiquities
with photographs of the coins showing that they were genuine.
That does show that it can be done, does it not?
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) It does, but
as we all know, the camera can lie.
Chairman: I know, and I am the biggest
patsy in the world. The other question which immediately takes
us to another area is this: Samuel Goldwyn used to say that a
verbal agreement is not worth the paper it is written on. We have
heard General Conforti and we have heard others talk about international
conventions. When we discussed this, insofar as we were allowed
to get a word in edge-ways, with UNIDROIT in Rome at their Convention,
the lady concerned admitted that it seemed absolutely useless
in terms of application and efficacy. Again, taking into account
that these things are not areas for you, do you repose a great
deal of faith in international conventions?
Derek Wyatt: We will not quote you, we
promise.
Chairman
500. We will just print it.
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) I think in
general terms, if I am honest, I do not think that international
conventions have produced much.
501. Thank you. I thank both of you very much
indeed. I am sure that everybody who has witnessed your answers
will know that the pursuing of these crimes is in extremely good
hands, even though I know you would like more good hands.
(Detective Chief Superintendent Coles) Thank you.
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