Examination of Witnesses (Questions 520
- 539)
TUESDAY 23 MAY 2000
MR EDWARD
DOLMAN, MR
SIMON TAYLOR,
MR CHRISTOPHER
ELWES AND
MR PAUL
WHITFIELD
520. What about antiquities, because obviously
we are concerned with what is happening to cultural property and
antiquities and sites, as has been mentioned earlier, in Mali
and Burma? Is that going through car boot sales, is that what
you are saying, or is it going through dealers or is it going
through you?
(Mr Elwes) It can be to a certain degree, because
if one is assuming that there is an illegal trade going through,
then to a very large degree I would have thought that the auction
rooms themselves would be the last place where you would try and
put these properties through, because, as you have already heard,
we do a considerable amount to make sure that we do not handle
such property. The issues we have already talked about do not
need to be repeated. I would suggest that it would be very much
easier if you had a relatively modest quantity of antiquities
to go anywhere else apart from the auctions. You have mentioned
Camden market, which I think is very unfair on Camden market.
521. It is just somewhere.
(Mr Elwes) I think we are again into this identification
problem.
522. Can I ask Mr Taylor, why did you decide
to cease trading in antiquities in London? Where now in the world
do you trade antiquities and why?
(Mr Taylor) We ceased our antiquities department in
1997 and we now hold sales only in New York twice a year. I think
there are two reasons for that. Firstly, there is a strong commercial
reason. Even before, shall we say, the much publicised problems
with antiquities, it was clear to us, throughout the 1990s, that
there was a shrinking supply of marketable antiquities, and our
department in London was, at best, marginally profitable. Secondly,
the market is much stronger in New York. As standards tightened
and tightened we preferred to concentrate our efforts in New York,
which is the world's strongest market, and only sell twice a year,
considerably smaller sales than were available in the early 1980s.
523. Does that mean that before 1997 you had
been trading illegally in antiquities and because it tightened
up you had to go somewhere else?
(Mr Taylor) No, I did not say that we were in any
way trading illegally in antiquities. In 1997 Sotheby's went through
an internal review. We had outside lawyers, at the direction of
independent directors of Sotheby's, conducting a review of our
processes. We spent $10.5 million on this inquiry. At the end
of that it did not conclude in any way that our staff were involved
in widespread deviation from the company's rules, which were already,
before then, not to sell smuggled works of art. At the same time
we are aware of the sensitivities of the antiquities market and
how it is impossible to trace the provenance of anything other
than top quality works, due to the multiple nature of many of
the goods in the market.
524. Do you consider that New York has more
or less regulations than London?
(Mr Taylor) They have different regulations. New York
has, for example, signed up to UNESCO or ratified UNESCO, although
it applies it in part. There are very strong rules in New York.
You mentioned Mali earlier and, for example, I believe the Americans
will not accept the import of any material from Mali, nor from
certain parts of South East Asia, to prevent the trade in Khmer
goods.
525. Do you have any suggestions about how we
could, in this country, improve situations to stop the flow of
looted antiquities through London?
(Mr Elwes) We come back to the database. It is a help.
We come back to us being asked to act as policemen to a large
degree. I think it was suggested at some point earlier that the
actual police forces themselves of these countries have a duty
to help to prevent the export of these works of art and to assist
us by making available to us data that they believe they have.
I think this co-operation requirement has to be two sided and
not just one sided.
Mrs Organ: Thank you.
Ms Ward
526. Do you think that dealers should be registered
or licensed in any way, rather than just a voluntary code of association?
(Mr Elwes) I think it is rather unfair to ask us,
because we are not dealers, we are auctioneers, and I think that
possibly you should ask them.
(Mr Whitfield) Many of them are, of course. The British
Antiques Dealers Association has some 1,000 members, I cannot
remember exactly how many. They have a published code of conduct.
There is LPADA—London Provincial Antiques Dealers Association—which
is the largest body nationwide. There are smaller local bodies.
There is a Cotswold body and there are various others that I am
aware of. They are all voluntary, of course, but they do publish
codes of conduct.
(Mr Elwes) You then come back to the problem which
is; when is an auctioneer or a dealer not a dealer? If they are
trading in something over the weekend, are they actually a dealer
or are they just dealing? If you are a collector passing aside
a few items, taking them round to stalls at a fair, are you a
dealer? Where does it stop and start?
Chairman
527. If you compile a catalogue you presumably
have to take some responsibility for the contents of the catalogue?
(Mr Elwes) Indeed, Chairman. I was not aware that
was the point of the question. I thought the question was whether
all dealers should be—
Ms Ward: Whether dealers should be registered.
Chairman
528. That was that question and that led to
my question. Listening to your answers, one of the things that
concerns me is whether you are auctioneers or dealers, this is
not any old trade. The British police and the Italian police have
both said that this, together with drugs, is one of the biggest
areas of illegal trade in the world. You may question the statistics
that have been offered, but when you have two major police forces
saying that this, with drugs, is the biggest area of organised
crime in the world, then peculiarly a regulation which might not
apply to areas of activity might apply. Mo Mowlam has been talking
about requiring people who indulge in illegal activity to return
the objects of their crime and the fruit. What about this, do
you think it would be appropriate to apply it to this?
(Mr Taylor) Can I ask what simply listing dealers
would do that could not be done within existing laws?
529. We have heard from the Metropolitan Police
that they believe it might be of use.
(Mr Dolman) I certainly do not think we are disagreeing
with the statements made by General Conforti or the Metropolitan
Police. I think the point that I have been trying to make is that
we have very strict standards of Due Diligence at Christie's and
we do not believe we sell illicit or stolen works of art. It certainly
is not in the interests of the company to do so. Where this art
trade actually takes place that the Metropolitan Police is talking
about, it is probably better to ask them than us. I would not
like to comment on that, but there are obviously other areas of
the art trade that do not have the same standards of Due Diligence
and also are not as public as the act of selling at auction.
Ms Ward
530. We know that there are a number of items
that are stolen each year and that are on the market. As large
auction houses you are saying that your procedures and policies
are that you will not touch them if you know what they are. We
know from the police, both here and in Italy, that it is a significant
sum of money that is involved each year in this. Where are they
being traded? If they are being traded with antique dealers at
Camden market, or car boot sales or a little shop on the corner
of the street, would it help to have those dealers licensed or
registered in some way so that they are part of a system and perhaps
would be less likely to indulge in trading in stolen property?
(Mr Dolman) I think if you can set up a system that
thoroughly regulates and inspects and makes sure that stolen property
is not passing through these outlets, then it makes sense, if
it is practical, but as the Metropolitan Police said, these things
have to be practical.
(Mr Taylor) I think the problem about some of these
numbers is that very often stolen and smuggled works of art are
rather lumped together. There is a major distinction. A lot of
smuggling does take place, but a lot of that smuggling is done
by the owners, it is not stolen works of art. Unfortunately very
often these things get lumped together to make the problem much
larger than it actually is. To return to your question, I think
the best solution is surely to give the police greater resources
and greater ability to chase down and investigate where you have
issues, rather than simply creating a register of dealers.
531. Perhaps that leads me on to my next question,
which is; you have made it quite clear that if property which
you believe to be stolen comes into your hands, or you have access
to it, you will take the necessary action and report to the police.
What happens if you suspect something has been illegally exported,
what do you do then?
(Mr Taylor) If we have any suspicion, firstly, we
would start with the consignor and question the consignor, because
our consignors, before they can actually sell with us, have to
sign up to the fact that they have good title and that the item
has any export licences if required. If we have further concerns,
then, of course, we would check, not just with the Art Loss Register,
but also possibly with bodies. It was interesting to hear General
Conforti. We have attempted on occasions to go directly to the
Italian authorities, but we do not get a clear answer in such
cases.
532. You do not get a clear answer as to whether
it is on their list of illegally exported goods? What process
do you think could be introduced to make communication better
between yourselves and either the Italian authorities or the police?
(Mr Taylor) I do not want to be in any way critical
of the Italian authorities, because it is growing. The answer
is co-operation, and that is developing the whole time.
533. Do you feel you have a good working relationship
with them?
(Mr Taylor) As you refer to them, yes.
Chairman
534. You responded to Claire Ward about the
great difficulties for you in dealing with smuggled objects as
distinct from stolen objects. You might have heard Mr Coles say
that it could be of value if trading in illegally exported objects
was made illegal in this country. Do you have a comment on that?
(Mr Taylor) I do in the sense that our experience
over the last few years has shown how incredibly difficult it
is to ascertain whether or not something has been illegally exported
when in some cases it is so difficult to establish the ground
rules on whether something does or does not need an export licence.
What I think General Conforti did refer to though is that as signatories
to the 1993 Directive on the Recovery of Stolen Property, we do,
in this country, observe other countries' export laws. The fact
that there have only been a very small number of requests for
the return of property under such laws, shows to me that the overt
public art market does not operate a huge volume of stolen or
smuggled works of art.
535. I accept all of that, and we heard what
General Conforti said, but Detective Chief Superintendent Coles
went on to say that he believed it would be of assistance to him
to have legislation of the kind that I described. In view of the
belief—which strikes me as likely to be accurate, by yourself
and by the two police forces from whom we have heard today—that
a good deal of the trade in illegally exported articles, as well
as stolen articles, might be collusive from the owner's point
of view, might it not help in stopping them doing it if they knew
that if they smuggled an item out of their country and got it
onto any of your catalogues it would be illegal for you to sell
it?
(Mr Dolman) As soon as we are aware that an item has
been illegally exported, we do not offer it for sale. The difficulty,
as Simon has pointed out, is establishing whether or not it has
been illegally exported and getting clarification from various
countries, including those within the EC, as to what does or does
not require an export licence.
Mrs Golding
536. Mr Taylor, you said very early on in this
session that you would deal with any well-founded requests to
look at your records. Can you define "well-founded"?
(Mr Taylor) I am not a lawyer, so please take this
as a layman's answer, but any request that is supported by substantive
evidence that the item in question has issues. What we do not
necessarily respond to are the more broader questions in relation
to people, rather than specific objects.
537. But it may be the case that there is only
suspicion and the only way of hardening that suspicion to be a
fact is by looking at your records. What happens about that?
(Mr Taylor) We work with Scotland Yard very, very
closely. Any request that comes to us from Scotland Yard that
agrees with British law, we jump to help in that request.
538. You have said that already, but you have
also said that it has to be a "well-founded request."
How can they know how well-founded it is unless they have very
free access to your records?
(Mr Dolman) If we felt that someone was concerned
about the provenance or the title of an item that we were selling,
if someone expressed that concern to us, whilst still respecting
the duty of confidentiality we feel we have to that vendor, we
would follow it up internally. I remind you that there is absolutely
no interest for Christie's to be selling, or be exposed to be
selling, works of art that are stolen or have provenance problems.
We employ people specifically to follow up these issues to make
sure that there is no problem when we do bring it to sale.
539. So, as far as you are concerned, it is
not a case of a well-founded request, it is any request that you
would deal with?
(Mr Dolman) It depends what you mean by "a well-founded
request."
|
