Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 154)
THURSDAY 15 JUNE 2000
MS GILLIAN
THOMAS OBE, MR
BRIAN BASSETT
AND MR
BEN STONEHAM
140. I intend being there.
(Ms Thomas) Good.
141. None of the rest of you felt the pressure
of time?
(Mr Stoneham) Inevitably when you have a project you
put pressure on yourself. Everybody was using the Millennium.
You do it when you are doing repairs on your house, you put it
on the builder. If you have something like the Millennium, and
you are saying to them "We would like it open for the Millennium",
inevitably you try and put pressure, it is a way of getting things
done quicker and more satisfactorily and not drawn out. I think
we put certain pressure on ourselves. I suppose if you look back
we made some mistakes in trying to be too optimistic or sometimes
announcing those timescales and then getting beaten around the
head by the media when we did not achieve them. In a sense it
was self imposed. I think the Millennium Commission is owed credit
in the sense that they have throughout not imposed the time constraints.
They have seen themselves as creating something for a much longer
timescale. Although at times they will have been frustrated with
us for being behind on the original time schedules, they have
accepted that to achieve the quality and to achieve things within
budget we should take our time to achieve it right.
(Mr Bassett) Within the original bid it was anticipated
that the whole £43 million would have been committed and
finished by the end of 2000, early 2001. We will not achieve that
in terms of finishing phase three, that will be at the end of
2001, early 2002. These projects are funding driven and it has
been all about putting match funding into place to be able to
draw down the Commission money. Certainly the Garden, it is a
charity, the trustees have always been totally consistent in not
committing expenditure to any more than the funding that is in
place, which is absolutely right. That in turn does put certain
constraints and pressures on any programme. We have had to adopt
the incremental approach in terms of the phasing, quite right,
but that is not always the most efficient way of delivering a
capital project.
142. I agree entirely with the Chairman, I think
the Lottery has transformed this country, and in fact I was one
of the Members of the Labour Party who voted consistently for
it throughout its stages. Can I just ask whether or not there
is a limit to the number of new visitor attractions that we can
have in this country? Is there a limit to the number of people
and the amount of money they can spend? Can we just go on building
more and more or will there come a point when we just find none
of them is viable?
(Ms Thomas) There was a study carried out by the Association
of Independent Museums, Victor Middleton, which I think came out
about a year and a half ago, which looked at the total number
and amount of money spent on people going out in general, of which
this is an important sector. In fact this year, from the figures
from the Marketing Association, leisure goods and services is
now one of prime sectors of expenditure for the family. This whole
sector, including going out to the shops or going down to the
pub which was one of the key things people said they did in their
spare time, is in fact steadily increasing within our society.
It is exceeding expenditure on housing, for example, at the moment.
What the visitor attractions have to do, along with the museums,
is to make sure that proportion of the general entertainment sector
increases and we grab more of it. That is the issue, how effective
are we going to be to increase our hold over the general expenditure
on visitors going out, which they are doing, as opposed to is
there a limit to the interests of people? At the moment the trends
are for people to spend more and more time on leisure goods and
services. It is do we have the leisure goods and services they
want?
Mr Faber
143. Reading through your presentations to us
and in particular the budgets and forecasts, I am very struck
by how successful you seem to have been in raising private sector
finance. The list from Bristol in particular of private donations
is very impressive and not only one or two big donors for all
of you but also a very good broad spread of smaller donors. How
did you achieve that? What was the selling point to private donors?
(Ms Thomas) First of all, we are very fortunate in
that we have a project of quality, really vested in the local
community. You have the science, nature and arts focus, it is
at the heart of the cultural quarter and it is based on local
strengths. So from very early on we had a credible content that
we could talk about to people. Also what we are offering is a
forum for industry, academia to meet the general public. We are
providing the general public in a context so that industry can
see it is of real interest to them. What we have tried to do is
to find partners that would enable us to fulfil those aims. If
I could take a key one, for example, Orange is one of our main
supporters who have provided the payment for what is now called
the Orange Imaginarium area which is a planetarium and we could
not have gone ahead without their support. Also, very interestingly,
they are using the site as a demonstration of wire free technology.
That is very interesting. We want to show that this is a site
where new technology happens and we want to have a leading industry
supporter. If you have got that mix, that gel, and you have consistent
aims between what you think is important and you have found the
partner that you want externally in the industry, I will not pretend
that it is easy to be convincing but it is more easy than if you
just say "this is a good cause, come and give us the money".
(Mr Bassett) Sustainability is the key word for it
as far as our project is concerned, that is sustainability both
environmentally and commercially. With the environmental issues
go all the green issues which are paramount in any organisation
today, along with education and science. In terms of sponsorship
from private organisations I think there is a very good shopping
list there for them, if you like, in terms of them buying into
the objectives of the Garden.
144. The shopping list within your project rather
than competition with other projects?
(Mr Bassett) Yes, the shopping list within our project.
It is very much about building a partnership and a long term relationship
with those sponsors. It is hard work and it does take time but
once you have established that partnership you tend to find, having
made the initial investment on their part, they then return to
make further investment as time goes on. It is a long term partnership.
(Mr Stoneham) I think the major component of match
funding, particularly of the private sector in our project, is
because of its regeneration nature we were linking a number of
developments and as a result of that instead of taking, if you
like, specific planning gains on individual sites, we were able
to achieve much greater gains by taking a wider view across the
area of the project. I think probably the Millennium Commission's
role in the early stages, particularly influencing the Minister
of Defence to sell land to the appropriate developers who would
complement that development rather than just something for residential
housing, so something which would generate the economy and indeed
the community was very important. Jennie Page at that stage at
the Millennium Commission was very influential in doing that for
us.
145. You all seem to have also had stability
of personnel and funding through the project which is in stark
contrast to what we have heard as well. Has that been an important
factor as well?
(Ms Thomas) It has been a very important factor throughout
Bristol because the whole of the regeneration in the area was
planned via the Harbourside Sponsor Group which is a mix of public
and private land owners for the whole of the 55 acre site. The
framework for the cultural park to get off the ground was laid
down by that context beforehand and they have stayed consistent
supporters and continued to support it with continual donations
as well. So they were there at the beginning, set the framework
and have continued from there to support. I think the continuity
is a really important factor and continuing through into operations,
that should be smooth so there is no abrupt change.
146. Yes.
(Mr Bassett) I go back to fundamentals really. Any
business is about the people who are in it and it is about people
and cash, those are the resources. It is the individuals, the
people that control that cash. If you have the right people in
the right place and you have that continuity then you stand the
best chance of delivering.
147. Having given you the cash, the Millennium
Commission has been a benign influence. They have been a successful
guiding hand.
(Ms Thomas) Yes.
(Mr Stoneham) I do not think we should give you the
impression that it has all been plain sailing because it has not.
What has been important is that there has been a win/win situation
potentially for most of the partners in the sense that the private
sector where they have had developments have clearly wanted a
quality scheme which regenerated and linked their developments.
We wanted as well from them a system that is in contributing parts
of our Millennium assets and I think that is what has brought
them together. I suppose we have the most difficult situation
where you are at the very nexus of the public sector and commercial.
I suppose that is why it has taken longer for us to get the Tower
together because that is the most difficult thing to do.
148. I was going to ask you in particular, Mr
Stoneham, I do not know about the other two, you have suffered
from the vagaries of local political interference and local politicians
to some degree? They have fallen out about it in this House.
(Mr Stoneham) Yes, I suppose so.
149. I am asking to what degree that has been
a bad influence?
(Mr Stoneham) It has come from one direction actually.
150. It has.
(Mr Stoneham) I do not think it is universal. I think
all the political parties, if I might say so, at various times
have been very supportive of what we have been trying to do. Inevitably
people have views and they have to express them and occasionally
it has made it difficult. I do not think it has stopped the focus
of what we are doing and I do not think it has affected the support
of Portsmouth and Gosport for what we are doing fundamentally.
It has made it slightly harder in terms of the PR and that sort
of thing but I think we have always believed in what we are doing.
We know that the local people and local communities want it and
we have just kept going.
151. One final question, and I am sorry to return
again to the issue of the Dome, but it has been the most high
profile Millennium event. We all thought the Millennium Commission
had spent its money, we now discover that maybe it has not. You
have all said today that you have a small shortfall to make up.
How do you feel when you see them going back and asking for more
money again and again and being given that money?
(Mr Stoneham) I think the view that has been expressed
here today is a great tragedy. As the Chairman said, no attraction
in this country has ever achieved the success really of the Millennium
Dome in terms of attendance. We talk about the problems of opening,
everybody has forgotten that when Disneyland opened in Europe
it was a disaster for the first year or two.
152. This is Millennium money, it is Lottery
money.
(Mr Stoneham) Yes, but it has been very successful
I think in all respects. You go down the path, and I think if
politicians need criticism for anything it is sometimes taking
a short term view. Both political parties in this country went
into the Millennium Dome, both knew what they were doing, for
goodness sake let us stay the course. It would help all our projects
if we all did that. What has undermined us is the general scepticism
about the Millennium projects.
153. It is bad publicity that has affected your
project?
(Mr Stoneham) It makes people sceptical.
(Ms Thomas) I think the projects that we are talking
about today are national projects happening in the regions and
I think the Government should pay equal attention to them, if
not more now, because whilst the Millennium Dome is coming to
an end, we are starting.
154. Absolutely.
(Ms Thomas) A change of focus is needed on to these
projects around the region because they have long term implications
for the country. I would like the attention that has been put
to the Millennium Dome and equal support coming to our projects.
Chairman: Thank you very much. I declare
the sitting closed.
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