Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220
- 241)
THURSDAY 29 JUNE 2000
MR DAVID
QUARMBY AND
MR PIERRE-YVES
GERBEAU
220. Can I ask you then about free school places?
Who said there must be free school places and how many have there
been?
(Mr Quarmby) That was a request which came to the
Board of NMEC from the Government. I forget the exact timing but
I think it was early last year.[5]
221. How many have there been or will there
be?
(Mr Gerbeau) About 500,000 school kids but, more than
that, we have also a deal which is the right deal to do, which
is a reduced price £8 ticket for school kids, which is another
2 or 300,000.
222. If schools are coming free, why should
they pay £8? They are family tickets?
(Mr Gerbeau) No, there was a free offer for a million
kids to come with free tickets.
223. A million free tickets?
(Mr Gerbeau) Yes. We are not sure we are going to
achieve that number.
224. So a million will not even come for free?
(Mr Quarmby) Sorry, what is our estimate for the whole
year? About 800,000?
(Mr Gerbeau) A little less than. Between 6 and 700,000
free school kids.
225. Who will come?
(Mr Gerbeau) Who will come.
226. But there are a million free tickets on
the table and 300,000 have not been taken up?
(Mr Gerbeau) No, the 300,000 I am talking about is
the extra deal and promotion we are doing with other schools because
there is an £8 ticket for kids.
227. Are there a million free tickets or are
there not?
(Mr Gerbeau) This is part of our price promotion,
that we have an £8 ticket for schools, which is the right
way to do it.
(Mr Quarmby) I am sorry, schools were invited to submit
for free tickets on the free ticket scheme. For whatever reason,
and I am not close enough to know the reason, not all of those
will be taken up.
228. So 300,000 will not be taken up?
(Mr Quarmby) About that.
229. So why should schools come for £8
when they could have come for nothing?
(Mr Quarmby) I do not know.
(Mr Gerbeau) As the business goes on, we are obviously
promoting this ticket more than the other tickets.
Mr Faber: That is honest enough anyway!
It is refreshing!
Miss Kirkbride
230. They do not come with mothers and fathers?
The £8 ticket is if you come with schools?
(Mr Quarmby) You can come free if you apply under
the free scheme. Large numbers of schools did, but not all the
free places have been taken up. There is a different package whereby
groups of children, either from schools or any other kind of affinity
group, can come for £8.
231. Got it. Are the 700,000 included in the
7 million?
(Mr Quarmby) Yes, they are.
(Mr Gerbeau) Basically we are looking at 6 million
revenue generated and then 700,000 is included in the global 7
million, which is the way any other visitor attraction does it.
That was the issue for me—what is your revenue generating
versus your free. Any visitor attraction which gives out their
numbers includes the free ones in it. So when in my previous job
I was saying, "We are doing 12.6 million business",
that also includes the free ones because there are obviously some
deals you are doing, there are some people who come in free but
they pay their sponsors money up-front, so there is a whole range
of deals in there. For the impact, and I said this very loudly,
first of all there is the product, I think it is a fantastic benefit
to have all these kids carrying around our educational message,
and they just make the place buzz, and having kids around really
serves a purpose. From a business point of view, it is obviously
good for business.
232. So it has grossed up your cash flow?
(Mr Gerbeau) Yes, it has, but it is how you factor
it. The challenge for this operation—and David can talk
about the past—was that it was not factored in. If you factor
in that you are going to have a million free school kids you must
include the impact on families, because obviously if they come
free they are not going to come back with their families, so if
you factor that in your business plan then you are fine and you
are serving some purpose that we had to give the educational message
and that was strongly linked with schools.
(Mr Quarmby) I think that is the precise point, that
the business plan did include the provision of places for children
for whom we would receive no money. What we had not allowed for
was the fact that since those children came in a free school group,
a proportion of those would not come again with their families
when they might have come with their families if they had not
had a free school place.
233. Yes, I can see that. Moving on, I can understand
why you are very upset about the press coverage. I have to say
I share some of the misgivings I see in the press about the product
in the Dome, but I would like to pay tribute certainly to PY,
who very kindly showed us round, for your enthusiasm and determination
to do what you can to make a success of it, and I would not want
this to be seen as a criticism of you. However, do you not have
to accept that as £500 million of public money has been spent
on the project at the Dome that actually there is going to be
very significant interest, and that although you describe it as
a business in actual fact it is not, because in business terms
this is not a visitor attraction which would have succeeded given
the financial cash flows?
(Mr Quarmby) I personally have always recognised and
accepted the legitimacy, not only of the business but the policy
and political interest. The point I was making earlier, Mr Chairman,
was that what saddens me is that the necessary and inevitable
debate about that has spilled over to affect people's attitude
towards the Dome as somewhere to come and enjoy. That is the bit
I regret. The nature of some of the media criticism has had that
effect but I have always recognised that a project of this kind,
with such a large amount of Lottery money, not technically public
money but Lottery money, would have a significant dimension of
public interest to it.
234. But it would be fair to say that the Dome
was not viable as a business.
(Mr Gerbeau) If I may disagree with you —
235. As a private business, having set up from
scratch, it would not have been viable.
(Mr Gerbeau) If I could write off the burden of the
past and look at a clean sheet right now, we are not only a viable
business but we will be a very profitable business. If we look
at our revenue targets, the way we turn round the offer on retail
and catering and different revenue streams, we would be a very
viable business at the moment, yes.
236. Even including the £500 million of
public subsidy?
(Mr Gerbeau) No, if I can write off the past.
237. We will forget about that bit then.
(Mr Gerbeau) If you look at the business plans right
now and if you look at the interest of one of the bidders to continue
the visitor attraction, they recognise there is a very good viable
business to be made out there as long as you have the right cost
structure, and if you run it the way we are running it right now.
(Mr Quarmby) If you look on an historical basis at
the whole project, no, of course it was not conceived as a viable
commercial business, nor indeed were the thousands and thousands
of other Lottery-financed projects up and down the country which
have helped to transform the cultural landscape of Britain and
make it even more exciting as a place to visit, if you are an
overseas visitor, or place to enjoy if you live here. Nor was
it expected that a commercial project of this kind would be the
instrument of regeneration of the Greenwich Peninsula, nor indeed—and
I speak as a resident in the area so I know it very well—of
the whole of the Greenwich waterfront also. You would not expect
commercial businesses operating entirely on their own account
to be designed to have that kind of effect. So when all the accounts
are drawn of this project, I think it is very important to take
account, as I am sure will be done, of all the non-financial benefits
which have accrued to this project along the way.
238. I take your point, I think the £250
million or thereabouts that has actually been about the regeneration
of Greenwich is money very worthwhile spent, that I would not
quibble about, it is £500 million which has been spent on
the Dome and the attraction of the Dome which is more of an issue.
One of the reasons why I share some of the press criticism is
that I was disappointed by what I found actually in the Dome and
I would like your opinions on that. Mr Quarmby—and you are
entitled to your opinion—you said that one of the things
about the Dome is that it makes people stop and think about all
aspects of their lives. Could you contextualise that? Within,
say, the Body Zone, what is there which blows your mind about
going into the Body Zone that it is worth money being spent on
it?
(Mr Quarmby) The first thing I would say, and I have
visited the Dome a number of times and I have taken friends and
people with me, is that not every Zone has something to say to
every visitor. It was designed so that some Zones would appeal
to young people, some Zones would appeal to older people, some
Zones would trigger interests of certain kinds, other Zones would
trigger interest of other kinds. I personally am enormously stimulated
and interested by certain of the Zones, others I do not find terribly
interesting, so I do not have any problem with the fact that some
people come and say, "Well, I didn't like this but I liked
that." Nobody can actually visit all 14 Zones in the course
of a typical visit anyway, and in a way it was never intended
that they should, so there is something for everybody but not
everything is for everybody.
239. Given what I went to see the Millennium
Dome for, which was a celebration of a thousand years of us being
here, what is British about it?
(Mr Quarmby) It is not intended specifically —
240. Just one little bit? Anywhere?
(Mr Quarmby) Yes, there is the Self Portrait Zone,
which is very much a celebration of the nation. But, very deliberately,
we did not set out for it to be a British thing. It is supposed
to have a universal appeal and a personal appeal, and I think
it succeeds pretty well in those objectives myself.
Chairman
241. Thank you very much indeed. Regardless
of the views that anybody can hold and regardless of whatever
conclusions our Committee might come to, I think I can say on
behalf of the Committee that we have found your evidence today
very helpful and in many ways impressive. Thank you very much.
(Mr Gerbeau) Thank you.
(Mr Quarmby) Thank you.
5 Note by witness: The Board decided to accommodate
up to 1 million free school children in March 1999. Back
|
