Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320
- 339)
WEDNESDAY 12 JULY 2000
LORD FALCONER
OF THOROTON,
MR BRIAN
LEONARD AND
MS CLARE
PILLMAN OBE
320. This is probably the only visitor attraction
there has ever been that has been a political issue. Mr Gerbeau
complains about it in his interview today. Presumably it would
have been a political issue even if the Government had not changed
at the last general election?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I cannot conceive how
you could have a Government decide that in excess of £399
million worth of Lottery money should go into a particular project
and that not be a political issue. In a sense it is right that
there be political scrutiny of it, though I sympathise with what
the chief executive is saying. He is not a politician but somebody
who is there to run a visitor attraction, and most visitor attractions
do not have, as it were, political noises-off going on whilst
the thing is running and I sympathise with his difficulties in
that respect.
Derek Wyatt
321. Can I take you back over the 12 million
figure? I think only one Millennium project hit its target audience
and that is one of the science exhibitions at Edinburgh, so I
think most of the targets are anticipated well over. If you wind
that back, therefore, the whole way in which either the tourist
trade works or professors of tourism or the analysts in this area
got it wrong for Britain. Can you tell us a little bit about the
source of the analysis of the 12 million and where it came from?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Jennie Page went through
this in her evidence but it was the Millennium Commission in the
first place who sought to estimate what the right figure was.
They sought advice not I think from people involved in visitor
attractions—though they had some experience themselves.
Between January 1996 and January 1997 various figures were, as
it were, discussed and the eventual figure of 12 million was adopted.
That was supported in part by various polling that went on to
ask people, "Would you be likely to go to something like
the Millennium Dome?", and that polling tended to support
a figure in excess of 12 million. In addition to that polling,
there was the experience of other Expo type operations in other
countries, though I do not think this is that comparable to an
Expo operation. So various sources were drawn on to try to reach
the figure. Quite sensible approaches are being taken to it, but
it is implicit in your question that this is a very difficult
thing to estimate.
322. And that Hanover is having similar problems
which is currently the Expo?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) That is what the newspapers
say. It does look as if they are having some problems but, again,
what Hanover is doing is something that is unique and innovative
and therefore, again, it is difficult to predict what the figures
may be.
323. But do you surmise—and it is easy
to have 20/20 vision—that actually the larger events are,
as it were, in the analogue world and that families no longer
want to go in the same way to these bigger events, as nearly all
the tourist attraction figures are down in the world for big events
like this?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I do not know. If you
compare the things that do well consistently—in fact they
do less well in numbers than we do in Britain but if you look
at Alton Towers and things like that that are successful—they
are successful I think because there is a clear view in the public
mind as to what you get when you get there. We are doing more
in numbers than Alton Towers but I think one of the reasons we
did not get to the 12 million, or will not, is because there is
not a clear picture in people's minds as to what they get when
they get there.
324. Are you resolutely against it going on
for any further because it will lose more money between March
and April next year?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) We always said the intention
was to have an exhibition that lasted for the year 2000. Nothing
has happened so far indicating that we should change that intention.
325. Can we move to the legacy? You are in the
middle of your discussions with Nomura and Legacy plc?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
326. Can you tell us where that is?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) The minister was involved
in a presentation on Monday of the two bidders. There will be
discussions during the course of this week between ministers about
the two bids and we would anticipate that we would take a decision
between the two in the very near future, by which I mean in the
next week or two. We might make it by the end of the week and
we will announce it as quickly as we reasonably can thereafter.
327. There is speculation in the media that
the Government is in favour of Nomura because Nomura has made
an explicit—or implicit—reference that it could take
it over the next day, if necessary, which would be politically
expedient possibly but may not necessarily be the right decision
in the long term for the Dome. Would you like to squelch those
rumours?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) It is absolutely untrue
that any decision has been made; it is absolutely untrue that
the Government favours one bidder over another because it might
give some short-term benefit in relation to money or taking the
Dome over early. That is completely untrue. There have been no
discussions between the Government and either of the bidders about
taking the Dome over early. The decision will be made on the basis
of what is in the best public interest and we have set out in
the rules relating to the competitions what the criteria are for
deciding who should take over the Dome and they are commercial
sustainability, regeneration, best use of the transport infrastructure,
best use of building, etc.
328. It seems to me, and I asked Jennie Page
this, that but for the tragic opening night, much of the hostility
of the media would not have happened. When we asked her that,
she only knew of it on 21 December which is going it a bit. When
did you first know about it?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) She told me pretty soon
thereafter, about 21 or 22 December.
329. It seems to me the police may have overreacted
on the security side, treating it rather like a combination of
a party conference and a royal visit by ten Royals and therefore
one of the problems was actually the police were in control of
security that night which caused huge hiccups at the station end?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) The security operation
on that night was peculiarly difficult because it is a huge site
and there were a very large number of people who could potentially
require guarding and particular security. That made the operation
very big indeed. The events of 31 December have been gone over
in quite considerable detail. Everybody involved has apologised;
it should not have happened. I do not think one should let the
events of 31 December detract from the fact that quite a substantial
element of the media, when they actually look at the content,
are favourable about the content and in a sense the media aspects
have been two-fold. One aspect has been the story of what is happening
and the other has been what is inside the Dome. A lot of the media
are quite favourable about what is inside the Dome.
Mr Faber
330. Could I follow up two questions? First
of all, in response to Mr Fearn you were talking about your own
liability. The board are liable for the debts of NMEC, and would
be liable, would they not?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) No.
331. They would not be personally liable?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) No, they would not. Legally,
a limited company—which this is—is liable for its
debts. The board is only liable if they are guilty of some legal
wrong like wrongful trading—
332. But have the board as a board rather than
individuals asked for and received any guarantee?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) When a person takes on
a job in a non-departmental public body, the Treasury will give
an indemnity to that person. The form of the indemnity is that
they will be indemnified against any personal liability save that
which arises from either reckless or fraudulent trading.
333. I am not talking about personal liability
but about NMEC as a board asking for some kind of guarantee that,
for instance, on 22 May they would not be allowed to go insolvent.
Anything in writing? Any phone calls requesting a guarantee?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) No. When they got into
cash flow difficulties in February and May, what they did was
they made an application to their bankers, as any business would,
namely the Millennium Commission, and sought further grant from
them.
334. We will deal with that in later evidence.
Following up very briefly Derek Wyatt's last point about the opening
night which has been extensively dealt with, who took the decision
that only the Prime Minister should travel by tube from Westminster
tube station?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) There were about 300 or
400 people on the tube, along with the Prime Minister.
335. The Prime Minister and his entourage, shall
we say, then. Who took the decision that no one else could use
that way of going?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) It was not an "entourage";
it was a gathering of Millennium Award winners so it was people
from all over the country.
336. Who took the decision?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) That was a decision made,
I think, by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in relation
to what arrangements should be made. I think it is quite an important
point, Mr Faber: you mis-state the position if you say it was
his entourage. Millennium Award winners come from all over Great
Britain—
337. As did all your guests?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) They were invited to come
to a party to celebrate the fact that they had won a Millennium
Award. They had also been invited to the Dome for that evening
which started with a party in the Palace of Westminster and the
best way to get them from there to the Dome was by the tube.
338. But it was not the best way to get everyone
else there?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Well, everyone else was
invited to come to the Dome; they were not invited to come to
the Palace of Westminster first which is where the Millennium
Award winners were invited.
339. The Dome is a little like a character out
of a John Wyndham novel—it seems to devour people: Jennie
Page, Mr Kane, Mr Robinson, Mr Ayling. Why do you think you are
still doing the job?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I think I have still got
a lot to contribute to the Dome. As I said in my opening statement,
we have had storms and controversies but I think it is a project
that is basically succeeding at a number of levels. As I have
said it is the most popular pay-to-visit attraction in the country;
it has made a very substantial contribution to regeneration; I
am determined, as is the Government, to see it through to the
end, to get the benefit from it.
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