Examination of Witnesses (Questions 164
- 169)
THURSDAY 16 NOVEMBER 2000
MR RICHARD
SIDDLE, MR
EDDIE THOMPSON,
MR ROY
TURNBULL, MR
COLIN FINCH
AND MR
TREVOR DIXON
Chairman: Mr Dixon, I would like to welcome
you and your colleagues here today. What we are dealing with today,
in so far as we can, is the impact of the Lottery on those who
purvey its wares and also those who conducted similar or comparable
activities before the start of the Lottery. I will ask Mrs Golding
to ask the first question.
Mrs Golding
164. Good morning, gentlemen. Could I ask what
problems, if any, your members would have if, as The People's
Lottery said to us last week, they intend to change games quite
frequently and introduce new games to try to stimulate more people
into playing the Lottery?
(Mr Dixon) We will answer that question but I wonder
if I could just introduce our team.
Chairman
165. Yes, happily.
(Mr Dixon) So you know where we are coming from and
perhaps give just a few words about the small store sector, or
the neighbourhood sector. On my extreme right is Eddie Thompson
who himself is a retailer/owner of a chain of stores in Scotland
and, as a constituent member of the Neighbourhood Lottery Alliance,
represents the Scottish Grocers Federation who themselves represent
about 2,000 stores in Scotland. Roy Turnbull, on my immediate
right, is an independent newsagent, Lottery retailer, as indeed
many of Eddie Thompson's stores are. He is from Yorkshire. On
my left, Colin Finch, an independent newsagent, Lottery retailer
from Wales. These two gentlemen represent the National Federation
of Retail Newsagents who have amongst their members something
like 22,500 independent newsagents. Then on my far left is Richard
Siddle who is editor of Independent Retail News, a trade
magazine that is circulated to 48,000 independent retailers, read
by many more, many of whom are themselves Lottery retailers. Neighbourhood
retail is perhaps an expression that is not immediately familiar.
I suppose if we turn the clock back we would say that we were
grocers, newsagents, post offices, forecourt garage shops, etc.
Those types of retailers have been under enormous pressure, have
declined in numbers, partly perhaps because of the activity of
superstores. They are now offering a wide range of goods and services
to consumers. They are located where consumers live: rural, urban,
suburban. They are open long hours, six in the morning to eleven
at night typically. This wide range of goods includes items that
consumers want to top up, so milk, bread, news and cigarettes
are very big in our range, but also the Lottery. That is very
important in terms of foot fall. We would like to believe that
small stores are probably the face of the Lottery in many respects.
We applaud the success of Camelot and would like to believe that
small stores have contributed to that success. I suppose it could
be argued perhaps their contribution to good causes starts at
that stage. It could be argued that some small retailers would
not have survived perhaps without the National Lottery being an
important part of their offering. Forgive that long preamble but
now an answer to your question. Perhaps, Eddie, as a Lottery retailer
you would like to respond?
(Mr Thompson) Yes. Could I say there are 35,100 Lottery
retailers in total throughout the UK and 24,300 of these are online
and 10,800 are scratchcard. The important element of that is 65
per cent of all Lottery retailers in actual fact are coming from
the independent side of the trade. Can I have a repeat of the
question, please?
Mrs Golding
166. I thought you might. The question was what
problems would your members have, if any, as The People's Lottery
told us last week, if they get the franchise they intend to change
the way lotteries are played, frequently to alter games and to
try new experiments? What problems would you have, for example,
paying out money when you have not got a single number up some
weeks and then not paying out when you have got numbers up?
(Mr Thompson) The biggest problem we see if there
was a change from Camelot to The People's Lottery would be on
the changeover period itself, we have great fears of that. That
is one of the reasons why we have said to the Commission that
if there is going to be a dramatic change similar to that, there
has to be a year between the decision being taken to the changeover
and when in actual fact it takes place. The way things are going
at the moment, that probably takes us through to about December
2001. We are suggesting that it should happen in the spring time
because you do not want to make a change during the Christmas
period because it would not be suitable for the retailers. As
far as The People's Lottery is concerned, obviously we do not
know them as we know Camelot. Camelot have been pretty good at
the training exercise, promotional material, promotional activity
and linking with all the independent stores, and The People's
Lottery would have to do the same thing. One of the fears we have
of the changeover, of course, is where it might be fairly easy
for Camelot to change to new equipment by just replacing in that
particular week on to the new system, it could be we would have
to be running with a Camelot piece of equipment and The People's
Lottery piece of equipment at the same time for a period of time
which could be quite complicated for the retailer. Therefore,
you would need promotional material coming from The People's Lottery,
you would need training, and The People's Lottery would have to
have the people to be able to train retailers, which Camelot has
done in the past.
167. You are not really answering my question.
What problems would you have if the games were frequently changed?
(Mr Dixon) Perhaps I can ask Colin to respond as a
real life day to day operator of the Lottery.
(Mr Finch) Good morning, Chairman. Good morning, Members.
Camelot just introduced a new game which commenced on Monday,
which is the main thrust of your problem of changeover of new
games and their introduction. Camelot have been leading up to
the changeover to introducing the new game for a number of weeks
and we have had all the relevant information, all the representatives
have been around and introduced it and the responsibility then
is with the retailers to introduce it to their staff and the training.
From an operational point of view, within the store it is quite
simple, the problem you have then is the general public find it
a different perception, it slows the whole thing down. On the
new game, Lottery Extra, I sold approximately 141 tickets in the
million pound jackpot for last night which was talked through
by my members of staff. Operationally it takes a couple of weeks
for it to filter through for it to be second nature to the general
public. It will get slower again on Saturday because obviously
a greater proportion of people play on a Saturday as opposed to
a Wednesday. Where The People's Lottery are concerned, if they
are habitually going to change games, if they change the online
game from six from 49 to six from 53, it will slow things down
slightly, people will have to change and look at more numbers
where they have become habitually used to the formula of one to
49 choosing six. Instants have managed to sell themselves, what
we in the trade call scratchcards, because they are a very similar
process, you come in, just a new face, there might be different
odds, £1,000 jackpot up to £100,000 jackpot or a £2,000
pension pay out as it were. They are quite simple to manage. The
problems will come operationally with habitual changes on the
game itself, on the terminal, because of its introduction to staff.
Mr Maxton
168. Mr Dixon, are you officially recognised
by Camelot as an organisation with which they negotiate?
(Mr Dixon) When we were formed we had meetings with
both Camelot and The People's Lottery and, indeed, the Lottery
Commission, so, yes, they recognise us. In our individual guises
as Scottish Grocers, NFRN and ACS we also have dialogue with Camelot
on a regular basis.
169. Have you had any discussions with The People's
Lottery on their proposals for a new licence?
(Mr Siddle) One of the key things we want to get across
to you today is the level of uncertainty there is within the trade
about what is going to happen. When the bids went in top line
information was released to the media and to the public at large.
We have been informed that apart from that top line information
we cannot find anything else out about specifics. Last week in
front of yourselves we probably found out a great deal more about
the details than we would have done any other way. That, again,
has added to our concerns and our uncertainty about what is actually
going to happen. More with The People's Lottery than with Camelot
because The People's Lottery last week revealed that they were
going to have this nine month trial period, if you like, and that
was the first time we had heard about that. On the whole issue
of handing over the network, The People's Lottery are saying they
are going to get their own names, they have not actually got the
official list from Camelot. Again, this concerns us because how
definitive is that list, how assured can we be that they have
got the names of all 34,000 retailers? The real concern is, as
you mentioned there, we cannot now go back to The People's Lottery
to ask them specifics about these problems, these concerns that
were raised last week in the Committee. They say they are having
a nine month trial period and this is at a time when they are
planning to move from six from 49 to six from 53, and you heard
evidence last week that could affect sales either up or down.
You cannot possibly trial retailers during a period of time when
they cannot give a cast iron guarantee that it is a level playing
field. All of these issues were coming out through your questioning
last week. Our big concern is the announcement is going to be
made within a month and is this fine tuning on those precise points
going to be rectified, are we going to have clarity on those issues,
or is it going to be a case of the decision is made and then it
is all up in the air? Although I welcome your inquiry, the timing
of it in terms of throwing these points up is causing uncertainty
within our own community and we would welcome further clarity
on a lot of these issues in due course.
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