Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
WEDNESDAY 8 DECEMBER 1999
AIR VICE-MARSHAL
JOE FRENCH,
GROUP CAPTAIN
STEPHEN LLOYD
AND BRIGADIER
PHILIP WILDMAN
60. Are these military sources or commercial?
(Brigadier Wildman) To my best understanding, SPOT
is a publicly available imagery source. The Russian imagery, to
the best of my knowledge, is a military source which is now being
exploited for commercial gain, but it is available at a price.
It is as simple as that. The issue that we have here is that most
of these systems have been typically delivering image resolution
of around 10 metres or worse—Landsat typically, say, 30
metres, SPOT 10 metres, Russian imagery 10 to 15, depending on
which you pick up.
61. Torrejon is right down now to 1 metre, is
it?
(Brigadier Wildman) I am not sure.
(Group Captain Lloyd) If I may, the WEU space centre,
which has quite a strong French bias, *** but that is not available
for other than distinct WEU business. I make that distinction
because nations can call upon the WEU to do work for them but
clearly if it is a national task rather than a WEU task they cannot
have the benefit and that is a French agreement, a releasability
issue. *** It is a French rule that their Helios military satellite
imagery is not to be used for those national tasks.
62. What you are saying is we do not need it?
(Brigadier Wildman) ***
Chairman
63. What is your budget for hiring commercially?
(Brigadier Wildman) I could not separate out at the
moment, Mr Chairman. It is a relatively small amount, amounting
to a few hundred thousand pounds typically per annum, but it will
vary year on year according to the nature of the product that
we are doing. If you would like, I can give you a figure.
Chairman: All right.
Mr Colvin
64. The Ordnance Survey is on the edge of my
constituency, so I am well aware of the work they do. A lot of
it is overseas now; they have a lot of contracts for map-making
internationally. What is your relationship with them? How much
do you use them?
(Brigadier Wildman) We have a very close working relationship
with the Ordnance Survey Great Britain. We have recently concluded
a new agreement with them, just back in September. We recognise
that we have to collaborate to the maximum extent possible to
benefit government as a whole, the taxpayer as a whole and from
my perspective, defence. In particular I do not expend resources
creating what one might call fundamental data of the Great Britain.[2]
I take the data of the Ordnance Survey and we have an arrangement
whereby I influence the specification of this and we have a military
product based upon the civilian available product. We do make
some additional military charts, such as air charts with overprint
information. We have arrangements for our contribution to the
Ordnance Survey costs of the creation of that main database in
the first place. That really covers the United Kingdom. As far
as the overseas operation is concerned we do take the benefit,
where we can, of work that has been done by OS International by
agreements through the Director General. He is well aware that
we are interested in understanding where sources of mapping may
be growing, perhaps new capabilities developing in developing
nations, so that we can maximise our ability to make contact throughout
the world and to acquire information rather than to produce it.
We collaborate on an active basis in that regard.
65. Oceanography?
(Brigadier Wildman) Oceanography in the direct sense,
no. With the hydrographer we do collaborate in the exchange of
data for information on appropriate products. Consequently, my
people will pass information that we have gleaned on ports, and
other such things, when we have been acquiring materials. We will
exchange material directly for a common product that supports
maritime patrol.
66. There is a new American initiative, ***.
I just wondered what difference that would make. Presumably we
have access to it, to both Military Survey's and JARIC's capabilities?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
67. What is it going to cost us? Will we have
any say in how it is deployed?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
68. You do not know what the cost is going to
be but it is something that we have to have?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
69. Perhaps we might help pay for it by scrapping
any idea of ASTOR?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) That would be for the equipment
capability area to decide.
70. Would you like to deal with the specifics
of the two agencies?
(Brigadier Wildman) ***
Chairman
71. Will the merger have any effect on developing
new areas, such as the FIA?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
Mr Colvin
72. What are the new capabilities that I talked
about that are coming up.
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
73. They are complementary to one other?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
Chairman
74. ASTOR will be almost simultaneous.
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
Chairman: On the battlefield you cannot
afford to wait 35 minutes. Mr Hancock: Following on from
what you have said, may I ask you then from all three of your
perspectives, or mainly possibly from yours, Air Vice-Marshal,
what are the main lessons you have learned from the most recent
experience of putting your knowledge into combat in Kosovo, and
what do you derive from that experience?
Chairman: Could you go back one. I think
Mr Blunt is going to talk on that.
Mr Blunt
75. Could you explain what role each of your
particular agencies played in the air campaign over Kosovo and
Serbia and over the subsequent deployment of ground troops?
(Brigadier Wildman) I was supporting the air campaign
in a very general sense but not directly in the air targeting.
My agency's role here in the context of your question was as follows.
We have provided general geographic support in terms of mapping,
digital (if you like computer-readable information) and similar
forms for all of the forces concerned. We have made common cause
with the United States in terms of production. We have passed
to them, for instance, the data that we have produced but it has
generally been in a form which you can describe as a map or an
air chart or a town plan or a similar kind of thing. So it is
a general support thing not peculiar to the air campaign. In addition
to that, we deployed a squadron of around 80 people to support
the deployed force commander. Their task is both to manage and
to exploit the geographic information in the field on behalf of
the commander so that they will utilise the information, particularly
in digital form, that we provide but also maps, and provide perhaps
operations orders, decision graphics, terrain studies and a number
of those things.
(Group Captain Lloyd) From my side of it, we supported
in three ways. ***
76. Were both your outputs available to all
the NATO units?
(Brigadier Wildman) ***
77. Did that then cause problems, the fact that
that was then limited to just us and the States?
(Brigadier Wildman) ***
78. Is that the same for JARIC?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
79. So from all that, in a sense it sounds as
though in effect the Americans retain control over what is largely
in a sense their original product? So does the stronger capability
of the States mean that they effectively call the shots in terms
of targeting and planning and certainly perhaps obviously with
regard to the air targets but also the land campaign?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
2 Note by witness: Military Survey also works
closely with the Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland. Back
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