Examination of Witnesses (Questions 580
- 599)
WEDNESDAY 19 JANUARY 2000 [Morning]
MR JOHN
SPELLAR MP, AIR
MARSHAL MALCOLM
PLEDGER, VICE
ADMIRAL SIR
IAN GARNETT,
GENERAL SIR
ALEX HARLEY,
AIR MARSHAL
SIR ANTHONY
BAGNALL AND
COMMODORE PETER
WYKEHAM-MARTIN
Mr Blunt
580. And the annual cost will be £15 million?
(Mr Spellar) Between 12 and 15 million because we
are looking at things happening.
(General Sir Alex Harley) You must realise that this
allowance is dependent upon operational tempo. If the operational
tempo goes down, of course, the overall cost of the allowance
goes down. If it goes up then those who are the hardest worked
get paid for it.
Mr Colvin: To avoid confusion, it is
since December 1997.
Chairman: The most important issue, as
far as we are concerned, if we reflect the views of soldiers,
sailors and airmen who come into contact with us, will now be
dealt with by Mr Hepburn. Telephones.
Mr Hepburn
581. Thank you, Chairman. The Minister did make
reference to the telephone allowance, and, indeed, it has certainly
proved popular amongst servicemen, but does it not seem odd that
whilst there is a telephone allowance of 20 minutes a week available
for servicemen in Bosnia, and Gulf and now Kosovo, in the Falklands—where
there might be tours of duty of four months—a soldier is
expected to pay £1 a minute to keep in contact with his family?
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) It is an anomaly, and
we are looking at it. There is no easy answer because the Falklands
could be described by some as a garrison run on operational lines.
Straightaway it falls across that dividing line between all the
allowances and conditions of service that are applied to garrison
duty overseas—such as Cyprus—and allowances and conditions
of service that apply operationally, such as in the Balkans. It
is not easy and I know it is a bone of contention. Whenever I
go down there I am told about it and we are working with the Ministry
of Defence to try and solve the problem within the whole operational
welfare initiative that is being run by the Ministry.
582. Can I ask the Minister if he is sympathetic
to this particular issue and would he have a view—without
giving any commitment—to rectify this anomaly?
(Mr Spellar) It is a problem. It is a difficulty,
as you rightly identify, and it is a clear bone of contention,
but it is not one that is so easily resolvable in the way that,
when we were looking at some of our operations, we were able to
say "Look, here is a readily identifiable problem and here
is a possible range of solutions to deal with it", because
you do then create, as always in these situations, some other
anomalies and difficulties as well. We are alert to it, we are
sympathetic to it and we are looking at it, but this is one that
is not so easy to resolve as speedily as, for example, we did
with the operation in Kosovo. That was partly, as I said, about
the time allocated but it was also about the availability of telephone
equipment. It was not a particularly good situation at the beginning.
It has improved but we also have to learn lessons from that in
order to have packages available and ready to deploy for future
deployable operations. As we become a more expeditionary force
we have to get these packages prepared and ready beforehand rather
than putting them together subsequently. There will inevitably
be some glitches on the way in that, but we have to have a much
better plan for that.
(Air Marshal Pledger) In addition, of course, it is
very difficult to address just one component of allowances, you
have to look at this in the round. You have heard described the
Falklands, and, particularly, Cyprus, as more of a garrison environment,
which is a completely different one from the kind of conditions
being experienced in Kosovo and Bosnia. Some allowances paid in
those garrison locations actually have a proportion in them for
telephones. So we have to take a coherent approach to this, rather
than just one element of that package.
583. With respect, I think Cyprus is a little
bit different from the Falklands. For me to travel from Newcastle
to London would probably take the same time to get to Cyprus,
which is different from a 24-hour journey to a remote location
like the Falklands in the South Atlantic. Is there any time-scale
on this particular review that you are talking about? Or is it
something on which you cannot give a particular date?
(Mr Spellar) No, it is one, as I say, that we are
reviewing because we are aware of the difficulty, we are aware
it is a cause and source of grievance, but equally, I stress,
it is not one that is immediately and readily resolvable.
584. It is probably me as a layman, but you
can see the difference between the Falklands and Cyprus?
(Air Marshal Pledger) Having been to both locations,
I can, yes, see the difference.
Chairman
585. In the case of Kosovo, when we were there
in November, the military personnel had vast numbers of `phone
cards and, as you said, not enough telephones to put them in,
which caused frustration. Surely, it is not beyond the competence
of the Ministry of Defence to instal more telephones? Why is the
problem still with us? Surely it could be fairly easily resolved
with some political will.
(Mr Spellar) Not entirely. There were complications
there with the telephone system and, also, as you know, there
were some difficulties with the contractors. That is an area where,
as I recall, we had to review the contract and the subcontractors,
in particular, and that is exactly why I stress to you that we
need to have a more satisfactory welfare package that actually
moves fairly closely behind our forces when they are in an expeditionary
role. That does not just apply, by the way, to telephones. A further
area is in terms of television reception, both on our ships and
when we move into theatre. Again, we are undertaking a number
of measures with regard to that. You are right to identify deficiencies.
We have identified those deficiencies and that is precisely why
we are taking action on it.
586. It is rather embarrassing finding out that
lots of our people in Pristina were invited—and accepted
the invitation—to go and watch television with Hungarians
nearby because of the limited channel availability. Hungary is
not the most marshalled of nations, it has a defence budget lower
than ours and it has not been engaged in expeditionary warfare
for some considerable time, so should we not learn some more lessons
about providing facilities for people put into awful places for
fairly protracted periods of time?
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) Chairman, we did learn
the lessons. We did not do well in the Balkans but because of
our experiences in Kosovo when we deployed the force to East Timor
all the lessons that had been learned were implemented and the
people were very satisfied with the operational welfare arrangements
put in place. I stood beside a man on an island off Dili making
a call home using a `phone brought out to theatre. That was achieved
because of the lessons that we had learned.
587. One of the criticisms in the Falklands
related not so much to attitude problems towards the MoD but Cable
& Wireless. Although their prices had come down, when you
watch television and see how easy it is to call Australia (assuming
you want to) you then find you have to pay £1 a minute to
telephone London, which is outrageous. Have you had any luck in
leaning on Cable & Wireless to bring their charges down even
further to what might be seen as an acceptable level to those
who telephone home? They might even spend more time on the telephone
if it is cheaper than £1 a minute.
(General Sir Alex Harley) Your point about learning
lessons is a well-made point, and we have, through the Kosovo
experience, decided that our operational welfare support needs
to be underpinned by a proper doctrinal basis. Up to now it has
been a rather ad hoc, hand-to-mouth approach, part publicly funded,
part privately funded, and not sequential in the way it is delivered.
Neither is it, really, on the shelf to be deployed. Or course,
the NAAFI and their expeditionary forces element play a huge part
in this. We have not covered ourselves with glory at all in making
sure that this happens properly. So we accept—and I am sure
we will go to the Minister in due course—that us, the PPOs
here, will be producing a doctrine, which is almost done now,
which sets it all out in a proper context, a proper matrix and
on a proper doctrinal basis which says "for this phase of
an operation this will happen; for this phase this will happen"
and so on and so forth, and contracts will be in being. That will
be part—very much part—of being better prepared for
expeditionary operations in future. In fact, it has already started
to deliver itself with the Ghurkas in East Timor, where I think
that all those who were deployed there thought that the support
was quite terrific.
(Mr Spellar) We have moved on in a whole number of
areas there. For example, on Internet access, which is now becoming
very substantial. We are actually providing Internet access back
here—a lot of that has been done through local welfare budgets
at bases, through the hives, and also, actually, in theatre—so
that families are able to communicate. Also, as we know, there
has been an exponential increase at all levels in society of access
to the Internet over the last year or so. We are responding, because
that, in many cases, becomes an even easier way of communicating
and backing up—not replacing—these other facilities.
We have developed the "electronic bluey" which has been
announced by the Secretary of State. All of these are helping
considerably to improve that communication from the operation
through to home. Again, with television on ships, we are now installing
facilities for better television reception when our ships are
being refitted. That is, again, a major improvement to the qualify
of life.
Mr Hancock: Surely the one thing that
you missed in your answers here, particularly when you drew comparisons
between Cyprus and the Falklands, is that if I were a soldier
or airman going to Cyprus and I was married I could take my family
with me, but you cannot take your family to the Falklands. Surely
the difference is this attitude that the Ministry of Defence has
to garrisons. There is a distinct difference, is there not? The
Falklands should be treated as a separate issue. I cannot understand
why that cannot be dealt with fairly quickly, and give them even
a partial allowance of 10 minutes per man on the Falklands, because
of the special circumstances, as opposed to 20. I would submit
20 myself because I know, from personal experience, of constituents
who have had significant family problems because of the lack of
communication. It is very difficult to get a `phone call, even
on compassionate grounds, quickly if you are in the Falklands.
I know because my own brother-in-law was put in that position
of trying to get messages home quickly and it caused a problem.
I do not believe that it is an insurmountable one that could not
be taken fairly quickly. If there is the will to bring this anomaly
out of existence by giving them it, for goodness sake get on and
do it.
Mr Hood: Before you respond, I should
say that I feel as strongly as the other Members. I do not believe
it is so when there are compassionate problems and people in the
Falklands cannot get access to a telephone. Recently we were there
and there was access to telephones on compassionate grounds, although
generally it is a problem. On the argument about 10 minutes, when
we were there the brigadier obviously used his own budget to give
a reward or a benefit to his soldiers by giving them an extra
10 minutes. Therefore, instead of getting 20 minutes, they had
an extra 10 minutes from the MOD. That was funded from his budget.
If the question is funding I think you should say that it is funding.
Looking at the body language—I am not being disrespectful—you
look as uncomfortable as you should. I think that you recognise
that it is wrong. I hope that in recognising that—including
the buzz phrases such as "looking at", "we appreciate
it" and "we are reviewing it"—that you do
something about it. That is what I want to ask the Minister.
Chairman: That is a point of view that
we all share.
Mr Cohen
588. On the point of e-mails, one thing that
is coming on stream in Europe—we saw that the commanding
officer in Kosovo has it—is the facility to have e-mails
on mobiles. That would provide a phenomenal communication system
between troops and their loved ones back home. Will the Ministry
of Defence consider the possibility of the supply of mobiles which
perhaps had just that e-mail facility?
(Mr Spellar) You have to look at the balance of costs
as between one system and another and the benefit provided. Would
it be better for everyone to have a longer period for a call—indeed,
we have given a longer period—or would they prefer the shorter
period with mobile access? In some cases we have to use mobiles
because of the lack of fixed communications. The balance of that
has to be looked at and particularly when the technology and the
pricing structures change dramatically as we have seen in domestic
circumstances over the past couple of years. I am indicating that
we are aware of those changes and we are responding rapidly to
them. When talking about communications we should not stay fixed
to the traditional manner of communicating, but we should look
at the ways in which people are communicating, particularly across
time zones and across continents. In many cases people both in
personal and business life find it easier to use e-mail or to
use that as a backup to the telephone. We all find that to be
so, particularly if we are dealing with people in different time
zones.
Chairman
589. When you make improvements perhaps you
would let us know because we are obviously most interested.
(Mr Spellar) And give you some credit.
Mr Colvin
590. Talking about taking credit, there is another
area where you have not taken credit for something that you have
done. An important factor in improving morale and therefore retention
is leave after operational tours.
(Mr Spellar) I have mentioned that.
591. I know you have, but it is not mentioned
in the White Paper. It says that you are introducing post-operational
leave, but it says nothing about the details. If you have been
on an operational tour for six months you get an additional 20
days leave over and above the normal leave allowance. That is
good news. Why on earth was more not said about it in the White
Paper? We have criticised the White Paper for being a thin document,
so where there is good news I think you should tell us. Is it
yet in operation?
(Mr Spellar) Yes. We announced it. We announced it
in the best way of keeping a secret in this country. The Secretary
of State announced it on the Floor of the House of Commons.
592. Has it begun?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Yes, it has.
(General Sir Alex Harley) People returning from Kosovo
have had it.
593. So those people returning from operational
tours will get the extra 20 days?
(Mr Spellar) They are already getting that.
Chairman: Another issue of irritation
is that most of our group slept in tents in sub-zero temperatures.
I was privileged to visit the Hungarian facilities in Pristina
that would make Billy Butlin shake with envy if he were still
alive. The facilities were scintillating, whereas the camp that
we visited looked a bit like the Klondike on a bad day. Mr Cann
is similarly exercised by the problem so will inflict his venom
on you.
Mr Cann
594. Not venom, but vague regret. We discussed
the matter with a number of people there. The programme is very
big—over £30 million. A lot of it involves great concrete
pads and semi-permanent structures, which will be of no use to
us when we move elsewhere and some are still not up yet, although
we are well into the Kosovan winter. The people were very envious
of some of the Scandinavian armies that appeared to arrive with
a fairly integrated tented city. They take it with them when they
go somewhere and then take it with them when they go elsewhere.
First, are we sure that we have the timetabling right and, secondly,
is the concept right?
(Mr Spellar) Let us look at two areas: one is the
tented accommodation and the other is the temporary field accommodation.
It would be fairly well agreed that the tented accommodation is
the best tented accommodation that our forces have had. I believe
that that is the view that they have conveyed to Members of the
Committee. Some of the press reports have read remarkably as though
it was "Carry on Camping" with very limited accommodation.
It is significantly better than that, although I accept that it
is not universal across Kosovo. Some are living in winterised
accommodation. The contract for the temporary field accommodation
was awarded fairly quickly when we knew the kind of timescale
in which we were likely to go into Kosovo. Certainly there was
a change in the environment, by which I mean that we were looking
at a more benign environment from the point of view of our forces
having an unopposed entry into Kosovo. That changed some of the
requirement. That meant a little delay but it was only a small
part of the delay. There were some other discussions about changes
at site level that I believe went on again slightly too long,
but it was not a significant factor. We have had significant problems
with the contractor in the amount of support and dedication of
resources. That has led to delays well beyond those that are reasonable
and for which we are retaining a considerable percentage of the
contract price until the contract is satisfactorily completed.
Therefore, we need to look at the matter of how we procure such
accommodation in the future and who we procure it from as well.
However, I have asked the CGO to amplify some of the details on
the current state of play. We should move into the first of the
sites this week, with a programme of a further six in February
and a further five in March.
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) The first two sites,
both hilltop sites, should be occupied today. One probably will
be, but one will not because on inspection there were defects
that we believe the contractor should put right, mainly related
to health and safety. We are not prepared to take on a camp that
is not built to the correct health and safety standards. That
shows poor contract and programme management. The next six sites
will be occupied during February and the final five sites before
the end of March. Going back to the policy, it is absolutely right
that we now have interim tented camps for expeditionary operations
and exercises. They will be withdrawn from theatre as people move
in to temporary field accommodation, which is designed to last
for three years, which is the expected length of time in Kosovo.
The policy is to have, as part of our expeditionary campaign infrastructure,
the best tents that we can get, and that we have today, and when
we move in to a part of the world where we shall stay for a few
years, we shall build temporary field accommodation.
Chairman
595. Having shared a tent with Mr Hood, I think
sound-proofing would be quite helpful. There should also be toilets
that do not require you to have a diploma in athletics or cross-country
running or toilets that are not put to shame by the toilet arrangements
of the Ottoman empire circa 1750. Even with our much vaunted improved
tented accommodation I would not want to give the impression to
any listener or viewer that our troops are living in splendid
accommodation. It may be better than it was, but to be fair those
whom we met did not complain very much. We were the ones who complained.
The MOD was quick off the mark in having the concept of temporary
field accommodation—unusually swift off the mark. As you
know only too well, matters were not executed as successfully
as they should have been. With that failure we should not minimise
the difficulties of building accommodation for 5,000 people without
much skill or local labour over such a long distance and very
difficult roads. Has there been any analysis that may be helpful
in terms of our logistical arrangements or supply organisations?
Have the contractors done anything that we may find useful in
supplying and transmitting accommodation, or anything, over such
long and quite inhospitable climates and physical environments?
(Mr Spellar) Our first priority is to get this contract
sorted out before we review the lessons learned for future operations.
We take the point that we need to improve the performance of contractors.
We also need to look at the supply chains. At the moment, of course,
we have a considerable number of forces going in there. There
have also been a number of natural disasters occurring elsewhere
throughout the world leading to considerable pressure on the provision
of those facilities internationally. The other area to which you
alluded—not just looking at the accommodation blocks themselves—is
how we get in the necessary infrastructure in order to service
those areas. Some of the problems that we have experienced have
been as much, if not more, due to the sort of environmental issues,
by which I mean the infrastructure issues rather than just the
provision of the blocks. That comes down to our project management,
which, as we have said, we believe has not been as good as it
should have been and therefore to the availability of appropriate
subcontractors and teams dealing with that. There are a number
of lessons to be learnt. At the moment I am indicating that we
are starting to see some progress. We can see how the contract
is running. I still wish to emphasise that the tented accommodation
is a considerable improvement on what our people have had before.
As you indicated, they actually understand and appreciate that.
Mr Cohen
596. When I saw the camp, which is an improvement,
I described it as "war by boxes". I think there is an
Italian company called "Coricor" that has provided them.
(Mr Spellar) Corimec.
597. Yes. We saw a number in Kosovo that were
damaged. They had to be lifted up and put in place by crane. It
seemed to us that the specification had not been checked properly.
Do you think improvements could be made to those arrangements
so that we get what we order?
(Mr Spellar) Certainly we will do, although we have
to accept that building sites are rough and unpredictable places,
particularly when you are far away from appropriate facilities
and there is no hard-standing. That is why I say that it is the
infrastructure and the installation issues that are often more
significant in causing difficulties than production. We have looked
again at the expeditionary package that we developed which means
that we are able to draw on a range of subcontractors in whom
we can place some reliance and some security and, therefore, are
able to mobilise them at shorter notice. That ties in with the
other issues that I have described previously.
Chairman
598. We now come to a section of questions on
undermanning.
Mr Hancock
599. I take you, Minister, and your service
colleagues back to the beginning when we talked about the overstretch,
undermanning, gapping, and so on. Today, you obviously came here
prepared for this question. Can each of the services give us the
current level of deficit in the Armed Forces?
(Mr Spellar) When talking about undermanning are you
talking about gross numbers, or are you talking about undermanning
also within particular sections?
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