Examination of Witnesses (Questions 660
- 679)
WEDNESDAY 19 JANUARY 2000 [Morning]
MR JOHN
SPELLAR MP, AIR
MARSHAL MALCOLM
PLEDGER, VICE
ADMIRAL SIR
IAN GARNETT,
GENERAL SIR
ALEX HARLEY,
AIR MARSHAL
SIR ANTHONY
BAGNALL AND
COMMODORE PETER
WYKEHAM-MARTIN
660. I have met people who came to the Redbridge
show in my borough and one of those was a black officer who was
there so I accept the point you are making, but clearly there
are historic problems of attitudes towards ethnic minorities within
the Armed forces and nobody is denying that. That is one of the
reasons the Commission for Racial Equality expressed their concern.
What are you doing to address that problem and to change attitudes?
(Mr Spellar) This is precisely why the Commission
for Racial Equality acknowledged the tremendous steps that have
been taken, the leadership that has been shown by the senior officers
within the Armed Forces, and the way in which that message has
been transmitted down the lines of command. And one of the advantages
of an organisation such as the Armed Forces is that intentions
at the top can translate down the lines of command. You have got
a very clear change. That has been seen not just by us but, as
I say, the Commission for Racial Equality testify to that and
give a very high commendation to the senior officers not only
for making the declaration but also for making sure it flows through
the system.
(Air Marshal Pledger) And there are certain practicalities
in doing that. There is a very clear system now available to report
and deal with any harassment and there are training courses for
all members of the Armed Forces in, shall we say, dealing with
these kinds of issues. Indeed, they are mandatory at certain levels
but all training forces have a component of dealing with the ethnic
minority issues and removing any harassment.
661. You have got things in the report about
recruitment from ethnic minorities. Can you tell us something
about the retension of ethnic minorities because one of the problems
that arose from the past is that people might not stay in. They
may come in with very high expectations and after some months
or maybe longer for whatever reason they leave. What figures do
you have and what monitoring do you carry out of these issues
of retention?
(Mr Spellar) I do not have any evidence of there being
an unfavourable level. Indeed, I think our problem is much more
perceptions of people before they come in which are very often
based on historic incidents and some of those that get highly
publicised in the media rather than their personal experience
when they are actually in the Services and, indeed, sometimes
they get criticised by people from outside. When members from
the ethnic groups say, "I have had no problems in the Services,"
they are almost accused by some people of being in denial when
they are just relating their experience. So therefore I think
it is more external perception as a hurdle for people coming in
rather than internal perceptions.
662. If you have any information about retention
rates in the three Services it would be helpful.
(Mr Spellar) Certainly.
(General Sir Alex Harley) We do monitor it, and to
answer your question, certainly in the Army their retention rank
for rank is slightly better than for white people, not very much
but it is noticeable.
663. What about the civilian side, what are
you doing to encourage recruitment of ethnic minorities into civilian
personnel?
(Mr Spellar) That is within the Permanent Secretary's
domain and we again have a positive campaign within the Ministry
of Defence consistent with the approach across the Civil Service.
664. So are there figures for the percentage
of employees on the civilian side of the MoD who are from ethnic
minorities?
(Mr Spellar) There certainly are and I will write
to you with them.
Mr Colvin
665. Have you thought of positive discrimination
at all, for example a Sikh battalion?
(Mr Spellar) The question I think you have to ask
is whether that would be well received by the members of the communities
who are actually in the Armed Forces. In many cases their view
is that they want to be treated as members of the Armed Forces
on their personal capabilities and their personal attainments;
they do not want to be differentiated.
Chairman: We have five minutes to deal
with a very important subject, women in the military, and an equally
short period to deal with another contentious issue, so I am sorry
but we will have to move on.
Laura Moffatt
666. Guess who is asking the women questions,
but I am really pleased to be. Actually I think you have a good
news story here, you have had a much better recruitment rate,
in fact better than this Committee I have to tell you. That is
something to bear in mind.
(Mr Spellar) It is their retention problem.
667. Definitely. Let us talk about what can
be a sensitive issue, and again it is a good news story, the increase
in percentage of jobs available to women in the armed forces.
Who decides which jobs are available and how is the criteria set?
(Mr Spellar) Advice from the services but ultimately
it is the decision of the Secretary of State.
668. Directly. It is well worth us talking to
him about that then, it is not just a question of the services
themselves deciding, it is the Secretary of State.
(Mr Spellar) We take very seriously the views and
advice of the services, both in terms of their views as senior
officers but also any views they have as to how this might impact
on operational effectiveness at the sharp end.
669. Okay. We have talked about a better story
on recruitment, the next difficulty that is perceived for women
in the British armed forces is career progression. As lovely as
you chaps are this may be an indication of how difficult it is
for women to come through into positions of power. Who is monitoring
that and who is looking at the issue of if women are disadvantaged
once they are in the services?
(Mr Spellar) I think what you would have to look at
also is the age profile of senior officers and also the cohort
movement of women officers within the individual services, therefore
the timescale within which women have come into a number of the
services and certainly in any numbers. Inevitably, in a career
progression, you are going to see that developing. Indeed, you
are seeing women advancing into higher and higher positions in
the armed forces. Interestingly enough, the comment from many
of those, and there is always a story, the first woman of a particular
rank, they say: "You know, I will be delighted when nobody
is noticing." That is happening and happening more and more.
I am sure as you have been around various establishments you will
have seen an increasing number not only of women officers and,
indeed, women NCOs but also moving into higher levels of command.
670. How do we make sure that their career progression
is the same as the men, that they are not being disadvantaged?
What criteria are you using?
(Air Marshall Sir Anthony Bagnall) Certainly, from
the perception of the Royal Air Force, when I have talked to lady
officers, lady NCOs, they feel that they have genuinely equal
opportunities today. We have 29 female junior officer pilots,
26 navigators, and when I talk to them they say: "The opportunities
are there, it is up to me and my colleagues to seize them and
to make the best of them". Certainly on behalf of the Royal
Air Force I believe the opportunities are there and the girls
know they are there.
Laura Moffatt: As I say, I think it is
one of the good news stories for the armed forces. You need to
be proud of them.
Chairman: We have five minutes. Mr Hancock.
Mr Hancock
671. Five minutes, quickly, on the issue of
gays and the recent change in policy towards homosexuals serving
in the armed forces. Long overdue, most welcome I think by most
reasonably sound thinking people. Would any of you agree with
the comments that have materialised since that announcement that
there was a form of institutional antagonism towards homosexuals
in the armed forces? If you do feel that, how do you feel it will
be overcome? The policy itself changing will not do that, what
efforts are going to be made to make some positive steps to overcome
that issue?
(Mr Spellar) What the policy does is the policy lays
down the code of conduct and the code of conduct is what we, as
the Ministry of Defence and the service chiefs as the officers
in charge of their services, expect of the people under their
command. As we have seen also with the change in attitude on race
and ethnic issues, a clear lead from the services to implement
a requirement is something that very clearly works its way through
the system and changes attitudes further down the line.
672. None of your service chiefs here believe
that there is any form of institutionalised antagonism towards
the gay community?
(Mr Spellar) What do you mean by "institutionalised"?
673. The army, the navy or the RAF are against
it on principle. That ethic of "we do not want gays in the
military" is not going to be simply washed away by a Government
policy decision, you might hope it will be but that in itself
is not. If all three of you say "I do not think it is a problem",
fine, I would like it on the record.
(Mr Spellar) But as institutions the services were
part of the decision as to how we implemented the decision of
the European Court of Human Rights. As institutions—
674. Institutions are made up of people.
(Mr Spellar)—if you are saying about attitudes
by some people in the services then they would be expected to
conform to the code of conduct as announced by the Secretary of
State and as laid down by the service chiefs and transmitted through
the chain of command.
675. The code of conduct, is that now available,
is that now a public document?
(Mr Spellar) It is in the library of the House.
676. Can you tell us then, the commanding officers
are going to be put in a position of having to make a decision
based on that code of conduct and they will make that presumably
and hopefully in good faith at the time, if there is a subsequent
action against that decision, where does the chain of command
go, right up to you?
(Mr Spellar) Within the normal procedure of redress
of grievance.
677. You have given the indication, both from
the political level and from the senior service level, that will
be robustly defended, have you?
(Mr Spellar) We always—
678. Not always.
(Mr Spellar) When we put out codes of conduct or we
put out instructions, we always implement those.
679. What work has been done in advance of the
decision last week to analyse the effects of lifting this ban
on the three services? What analysis have you done?
(Mr Spellar) The discussion had to be on the basis
of implementing them. If we were looking at a full examination
of the impact, that would have been the process we would have
had under the service discipline acts under the Standing Committee
procedure. We had a situation, the legal position and the Ministry
of Defence and the service chiefs, how we effectively implement
that through the services consistent with the law and with maintaining
military and operational effectiveness.
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