Examination of witness (Questions 740
- 757)
WEDNESDAY 12 APRIL 2000
MR STEPHEN
TIMMS
740. Were Customs and Excise not aware of allegations
of fraud or instances of fraud? Certainly this Committee has been
made aware of concerns about golf courses and so on.
(Mr Timms) I would encourage anyone who has evidence
of fraud to bring it forward. If the Committee has evidence of
fraud on landfill tax, Customs and Excise would very much like
to see it. From time to time, there have been allegations, in
rather general terms, about problems which certainly have been
investigated when they have arisen. I think what was in The
Guardian was rather new and potentially very serious. If those
allegations are found to have been true then Customs & Excise,
as I say, will take very stiff action in response.
741. Have you seen the report that I understand
has been sent to Customs & Excise?
(Mr Timms) I have seen the articles in The Guardian,
I have not seen additional material that has been sent in, no.
742. Will you endeavour to look at it when Customs
& Excise receive it?
(Mr Timms) As the Minister responsible for the Landfill
Tax I will be kept fully briefed by them on their progress in
any investigation.
Mrs Gorman
743. As a Member of Parliament with a number
of landfill sites in her area, may I say that this tax has had
an equal and opposite effect so far as fly tipping goes in my
area. I do write frequently to Mr Meacher and I get the usual
bland letters back telling me that all this lovely money collected
in the Landfill Tax is going to environmental and regeneration
schemes, of which we see nothing in my part of the world. I would
urge you to review the whole subject of this tax. If ever there
was a tax that had an opposite effect it seems to me this is it.
What are you going to do about it? Why will nobody take any notice
of all the rubbish dumped in the farm lanes around me because
of the tax?
(Mr Timms) The Landfill Tax was introduced by the
previous government. The Landfill Tax Credit Scheme has been quite
widely praised and a lot of people—
744. Not by the people in my area.
(Mr Timms) A lot of people say that there have been
very significant environmental improvements funded through the
Landfill Tax Credit Scheme. I think that needs to be said as well.
In terms of fraud, we take an extremely dim view of that and if
there is fraud being perpetrated we will take the appropriate
legal action.
Mr Olner
745. You have spoken fairly frankly this morning
with a deal of caution on regeneration but I want to probe you
on degeneration and that is the problem with Rover at Longbridge.
I want to know how quickly the Treasury is able to lever monies
in to stop degeneration in areas like this when a catastrophic
industrial problem arises.
(Mr Timms) I suspect that you know more than I do
about what is happening currently. There is the task force that
has been established. There was the announcement recently of additional
funding for retraining where that is needed. We have been able
to respond pretty swiftly to the BMW announcement and we have
been working across Government to make sure that we have a properly
co-ordinated response.
746. What I am seeking is the fact that whilst
I can understand the Treasury being cautious, I would not like
too many hoops and obstacles placed up there so that the Government
or the Treasury would not be able to match venture capital monies
coming in to save the majority of Rover.
(Mr Timms) I have talked about venture capital and
what is being done on that front with the Regional Venture Capital
Fund. The RDA clearly is party to the discussions that are going
on about where we go on Rover. I think all I can say is that there
is a very determined response that has been made across Government
to the entirely unexpected BMW announcement and we are determined
to do everything that we can working with those in the area to
minimise the potentially damaging consequences.
747. Are you saying to us you have got joined-up
thinking with DTI and there have been no obstacles placed in front
of any possible solution by the Treasury?
(Mr Timms) We are working very closely with DTI and
with DfEE as well on the training and employment aspects.
Chairman
748. On this question about competition policy
and out of town shopping developments particularly, there have
been these persistent leaks or suggestions or hints that competition
policy is going to make those sorts of developments easier and
they almost always come from your Department. Is there really
any truth in them or would you like to hit them over the head
absolutely and finally now?
(Mr Timms) We have introduced the requirement that
the planning system should take competition into account. The
intention of that is that planning decisions should be taken on
the basis of all the relevant costs and benefits, including the
wider social benefits that competition can bring. I think that
is very important. Equally, we understand the need to ensure the
vitality of existing urban shopping centres and proper protection
of the environment. So any development should only go ahead when
all of those factors are taken into account. I think that is the
framework that we have set for these decisions to be made and
I think it is the right framework.
Mrs Dunwoody
749. You know, there is a problem with that,
Mr Timms, is there not, because competition and maintaining the
interests of your run down centres, whether they are towns or
cities, can really be in direct opposition one to another? It
was quite clear from the planning laws what the situation was
and that people were expected to look at the implications of granting
planning for supermarkets on the outside. What you appear to be
saying is "fine, but we expect people to look at competition
and to look at all the social costs". That is a very difficult
formula to give people and actually I am not sure what the hell
it means.
(Mr Timms) I do think it is important that competitiveness,
competition issues, is addressed here because it is in everybody's
interests.
750. So it is important to say if I want to
build my supermarket outside because I can make more money there,
I have the right to do so?
(Mr Timms) It is important to reflect that if there
are better, newer ways of providing services which are more cost-effective
that it is possible for that to be done. There is no reason why
people in our city areas should have to pay more for their shopping
than people elsewhere. I think that is important.
751. So how do you align that with the need
to take account of the social costs of inner city areas of that
kind of development on the outskirts?
(Mr Timms) Those issues have been addressed by the
Policy Action Team that has been set up under the Social Exclusion
Unit framework and they are addressed in the consultation report
that is being published today about taking forward our strategy
for renewing disadvantaged areas. I think part of the answer though
does lie in people looking back to the older shopping areas and
seeing that there are, in fact, attractive commercial opportunities
that can be realised in those areas. I would want to emphasise
that. I think part of what has happened has been a sort of fashion
that people have moved out of the inner city areas—
752. I am sure that if we had the time we could
go over exactly how we have got to the situation in my constituency
where we have seven supermarkets in a row on the outskirts and
a dying centre in the town. I am asking you something different.
I am saying that the Treasury has a major role because it determines
tax, it determines the overall fiscal policies and it determines
whether or not we are able to change the way we deal with our
real problems of urban regeneration. What we want from you is
a fairly straightforward statement that what matters is not this
idea that we give people planning permission on the basis of their
competitiveness but that we give it to them on the basis of the
planning interests and the social interests of the areas concerned.
Why are you really saying to me that you have drawn in this extra
complication, because I expect somebody to want to build a supermarket
where they are going to sell things? I am of the straight forward
generation of people who believe that people normally only do
things for profit where they think they are going to make a profit.
How is it you are saying to us, on the one hand, yes, competitiveness
and, on the other hand, yes, of course, consider the interests
of the socially deprived areas?
(Mr Timms) I think what I am saying is that all of
those issues need to be taken account of in planing decisions.
753. Okay, I give in.
(Mr Timms) It is important—
Chairman
754. When I started this group of questions
I was hoping for a straight forward "yes".
(Mr Timms) Can I say just one extra sentence on this.
I think it is important that there should be competition in retailing
for people living in our urban areas.
Mrs Dunwoody: Sure.
Chairman
755. A small market town, does it need one supermarket
outside or does it need two for competition?
(Mr Timms) That is a matter for the local authority
to determine in the planning process.
756. That was a short answer at least. On these
issues of capital and revenue expenditure, some local authorities
seem to think that your rules are extremely inflexible in terms
of what is capital and what is revenue. Could you not relax them
a little bit and trust the local authorities?
(Mr Timms) I am meeting with the Local Government
Association this afternoon and we are looking at issues of local
government funding. I am not sure whether they have pressed us
on that point specifically in the current discussions.
757. They have certainly been pressing us, so
perhaps you will take it into account. At that point, can I thank
you very much for your evidence.
(Mr Timms) Thank you very much indeed.
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