Examination of Witness (Questions 140
- 153)
WEDNESDAY 8 MARCH 2000
PROFESSOR SIR
KEITH O'NIONS
140. We will. When Sir Robert Walmsley was in
your chair after he appeared before us I narrated to him Harry
Truman's last words on leaving office and offering some advice
to Eisenhower. He said "Poor Ike, he will sit here and say
`Do this, do this, do that, do that' and absolutely nothing will
happen". I hope you will be able to make things happen in
a structure where sometimes making things happen can be neutralised
by conflicting interests and so on.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) I know your point is a serious
point and it is taken as a serious point. All I can say is that
most of my career has not been involved foot dragging and I have
achieved some things. As I say, measure me against that aspiration.
141. There are some real pros in there.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Thank you. I thought I was going
to get an under arm bowling.
Chairman: It will spin four ways before
it reaches you.
Dr Lewis: From Harry Truman to Harry
Cohen.
Mr Cohen
142. The buck stops here. In the one minute
remaining I want to raise the issue of nuclear safety which is
an important matter.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Yes, it is.
143. I will roll the points up together and
do it in a broad way. I am asking for broad answers anyway.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Yes.
144. There are lots of organisations in the
field—Nuclear Installations Inspectorate, AWE, MoD itself—firstly,
what is your role in that?
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Yes.
145. The second point is that the Secretary
of State recently announced a safety review of Aldermaston after
they got fined for discharging contaminated water into the ground.
Presumably this inquiry will be conducted by the MoD itself, does
that mean you, and will you be involved in that safety review?
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Yes.
146. Then on nuclear weapons itself and the
submarines, is your concern there about the effectiveness or safety
or both? I just throw in again, there are important issues here
of, for example, the Russian syndrome, decaying, accidents, the
decommissioning problem, what is your view?
(Sir Keith O'Nions) You have covered a lot of ground
there. It could be an agenda for a second hearing.
Mr Cann: It usually is when Harry asks
a question.
Mr Cohen
147. Put them on the agenda, that is right.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Let me be quite brief. As Chief
Scientific Adviser to the Ministry of Defence I am ultimately
responsible for all scientific advice that goes to the Department
and the Secretary of State. Within the specific area of nuclear
safety, the prime responsibility for nuclear safety in AWE is
with the line management at AWE, however I would be considered
as a source of advice if necessary. There is an important distinction
there and it is a real one. Also, the line management has responsibility
to the regulators. There is a thing called the Defence Nuclear
Safety Committee, which is an independent committee, I am not
involved in it. It is chaired by Sir John Cadogan at the moment
and it is only external members and it reports directly to the
Secretary of State. My staff provide a secretariat to that but
let me be very clear they provide a secretariat, the members of
the Committee are independent and do report to the Secretary of
State on defence nuclear safety. You mentioned nuclear weapons,
there is a Nuclear Weapons Safety Advisor who is an external consultant
and provides advice. He is a weapons safety champion, to put it
into relaxed parlance. He reports his findings directly to me
and to the Chief of Defence Procurement and to the Chief of Defence
Logistics and, unsurprisingly, to the First Sea Lord because of
the SSBN capability. That is how weapons and safety and nuclear
safety in general is looked after. I think it is a pretty secure,
robust framework. I would hope that you take an interest in this.
The public at large needs to be assured that these issues are
being taken seriously and you have a measure of independence in
these matters and I am pleased you take an interest in them. You
came specifically to issues about AWE management.
148. Yes.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) The contract for the Atomic Weapons
Establishment is let by the Defence Procurement Agency, so you
really need to have Sir Robert Walmsley sitting in this hot seat
rather than me. Any considerations about the present and new arrangements
in the light of the events of which you are only too aware that
have appeared in the media, that is first and foremost a Defence
Procurement Agency responsibility. However, as Chief Scientific
Advisor I would be available for advice should it bedeemed necessary
in an area of safety but I have made it clear that in awarding
the new contracts my people, CSA area people, were involved in
defining the requirements for that contract and safety is the
number one priority. I hope that has given you a sense of my indirect
involvement really.
Mr Cohen: My colleague has given me a
time bomb of a question here.
Chairman: It is not from me, it is from
Dr Lewis.
Mr Cohen: It says: is your Department,
you or your people, working on a successor to Trident?
Chairman
149. I think you had better be quiet on that
one.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) No, no.
150. Is that the view from behind, would you
turn around and seek advice on this one?
(Sir Keith O'Nions) The SDR is explicit in this regard
and it is a public domain issue. The SDR requires to maintain
the Trident deterrent and to maintain the ability to sustain it
into the future and have the potential, if necessary, to design
a replacement. That is what is being carried out.
Dr Lewis
151. Good.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) I think that is a direct answer
to your question.
Chairman: You are talking to the Chairman
of Labour's CND here.
Mr Cohen: Thank you for the clarity.
Chairman
152. Can I say thank you so very much. We can
reassure you that if this was a genuine confirmation hearing you
would not have any difficulty, with the one exception of your
comments on DERA, I might say.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Or lack of it.
153. I am sure after a couple of years in the
MoD you will slightly reverse what WC Fields said on his death
bed: "On the whole I would rather be in Oxford". Thank
you so much.
(Sir Keith O'Nions) Thank you very much.
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