Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
WEDNESDAY 19 APRIL 2000
RT HON
GEOFFREY HOON,
MP, AIR COMMODORE
GLEN TORPY
AND MR
SIMON WEBB
80. Okay, we can assume from your unwillingness
to answer that on many occasions host nations have vetoed operations.
(Mr Webb) No. Having looked at this over a long period,
and I was involved in it ten years ago, I would say relations
and co-operation are as good as they have ever been. We have a
very close understanding and we work with our regional partners.
Obviously there are sensitivities about their customs and domestic
issues of that kind but in terms of operations I cannot think
of any inhibitions that are preventing us undertaking operations
as we want to do so.
81. What you are saying is that effectively
they have not vetoed an operation?
(Mr Hoon) I cannot think of an example where they
have said "you cannot conduct this specific operation".
82. Maybe not in your time, Secretary of State,
but, Mr Webb, you are talking with a decade's experience in this
area.
(Mr Webb) Actually I said I knew it ten years ago,
I am just comparing it with that.
Mr Hancock: We should not put too much
weight on your answers then.
Chairman: I think it is the kind of question
where perhaps you could write to us because clearly Turkey imposes
a certain number of conditions, the Saudis impose a certain number
of conditions, activities can take place at certain times on certain
days. I think what Mr Hancock is asking, and you can write to
us in private, is the extent to which your operations—our
operations, not your operations—can proceed in the way that
we perceive to be in accordance with our requirements and our
perception of what ought to be done. I think it might be wise
perhaps to drop us a line privately.
Mr Hancock
83. Can I ask one quick question. The Saudis
have a specific policy that they do not want you to fly offensive
missions from Saudi Arabia. Effectively has that meant that you
have had difficulty in delivering a counter-strike to something
that you felt was necessary?
(Mr Hoon) That is helpful because now I know what
you are driving at. The policy of Saudi Arabia at the time of
Desert Fox was that we should not conduct bombing operations from
the base there. That is part of the background against which we
operate, therefore we would not make that specific request. Therefore,
your rather vaguer questions earlier I was answering in a perfectly
proper way.
84. You were being equally vague in your answers.
I think we will have to write our report bearing that in mind.
The final question from me is are we, as UK Limited, capitalising
on our influence and all of this goodwill? Is that manifesting
itself in jobs in the UK, in good business for UK Limited?
(Mr Hoon) I do not accept that there is any connection
between the two and I do not think you would want me to say somehow
that we are conducting important humanitarian operations where
our pilots are at risk as some sort of shop window for British
defence sales. I would not accept that connection. What I would
say is that clearly the goodwill that is generated by our willingness
to participate in these operations and our support for the countries
in the region undoubtedly does mean that a number of countries
locally look sympathetically at the British Government and British
defence interests when they are looking to secure equipment. The
truth of the matter is, though, that this is an extraordinarily
competitive market and we compete vigorously with a number of
countries. In general terms clearly it assists that we are there
but there is no necessary connection between the two.
85. I can imagine that they would be mightily
impressed with the training capabilities and the expertise of
our personnel, are they suitably impressed with the cream of our
kit that we have got down there? Are they all rushing to duplicate
what we have got?
(Mr Hoon) I do not think there is any difficulty.
If you have been to see our aircraft taking off, if you have seen
details of the kinds of very dangerous operations that they conduct
in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and I have had the
opportunity of seeing some film of those operations, I doubt that
you would be at all concerned about the quality of the kit that
they have. They are very well equipped to do a very difficult
and demanding job.
86. Are the potential customers for that type
of equipment in the area suitably impressed not with what our
personnel can do in the way of tricky operations but the sort
of machinery they are flying, the equipment they have got on board?
(Mr Webb) The Saudis, for example, are very substantial
purchasers of the Tornado aircraft.
(Mr Hoon) Very substantial.
Chairman
87. When we were in Kuwait we met the British
Military Mission and they were telling us that the Kuwaitis are
very anxious that we assist them further in the establishment
of a military college, what they need are young officers. I did
volunteer Crispin Blunt but he declined my offer of a sabbatical.
It appears to be a good opportunity. Perhaps you would have a
look at this, Secretary of State, because I think they are desperate
for more British personnel to go out and help them set up their
staff college but as yet we have been unable to respond positively.
Will you have a look at that to see whether we can do more?
(Mr Hoon) I will have a look at it. We are looking
at it. You began these proceedings indicating that I had met the
Kuwaiti Defence Minister very recently, and it is not the first
time I have met him in recent times, and certainly we have discussed
these matters. I think there is every prospect that we can develop
further training assistance for Kuwait and it is something that
we are actively pursuing.
Chairman: Thank you.
Mr Cohen
88. A very brief question. I want to ask you
about Turkey because in the past and in recent months there have
been Turkish incursions into the north against the Kurds. We are
supposed to be defending those Kurds in the no fly zone, what
has been your reaction in relation to Turkey when those events
take place?
(Mr Hoon) It is not something that I need to react
to in my present position.
89. You are defending them.
(Mr Hoon) It is not something that the Government
is specifically aware of as far as incursions by the Turkish Government
is concerned.
90. It is pretty well documented. We are supposed
to be defending those Kurds, that is the whole basis of it. Anyway,
I have made my point.
(Mr Hoon) No fly zones are established to defend the
Kurds against the Iraqi regime.
Mr Gapes
91. Can I ask you another question about the
question of training support. One issue that was raised with us
was the fact that in the Gulf Co-operation Council states generally
the Americans and the French give training support without charging
for it but we do charge. Although our training is regarded as
much superior, and therefore people still have it to some extent,
nevertheless we are weakening our influence because of this approach.
Is this something you are prepared to look at and review?
(Mr Hoon) It is certainly something that I am prepared
to look at. It is something which certainly has been raised with
me from time to time but I would not say regularly. Part of my
response you have anticipated. Part of my response is to say—this
is well recognised—the kind of training we provide is of
the very best quality. That is very well recognised and people
are willing to pay for it. I accept that there is competition
both for equipment and for training and we will have to look carefully
to ensure that we maintain the right kinds of relationships. Certainly
the training experience that a number of people have had in the
United Kingdom does mean that they remain lifelong friends of
the United Kingdom very often and I would be very reluctant to
see that benefit lost because, for example, we were not able to
attract people because of the costs of training. I have to say
for the moment that is not the case, we have no shortage of people
coming for training. Whilst there is competition around on price
I still remain absolutely confident that what people are getting
from training in the United Kingdom cannot easily be duplicated
anywhere else. I think you will find that most other people recognise
that fact.
92. You have accepted in your answer that there
is a spin-off in terms of potential defence sales in a sense.
I will not use the words that were actually said to us, but our
approach was described as not as professional as that of some
other countries, particularly the United States and France, and
that our equipment was often thought to be more expensive. Are
you satisfied that we are doing as well as we could be with regard
to our defence industry and its exports to the region?
(Mr Hoon) I think I was being rather more subtle in
terms of the impact and the benefit of training. I am not sure
that it necessarily and directly leads us to be able to sell our
equipment more easily. I think it creates a general atmosphere
of goodwill to the United Kingdom. You will have met people, as
I have, and the first thing they say is "I went to Sandhurst"
or "I spent some time in the United Kingdom" and it
is the kind of experience that does stay with people throughout
their lives. I think it does create a very positive impression
of the United Kingdom that that happens. As far as the sales of
equipment are concerned, I said earlier it is an extraordinarily
competitive market. The Government strongly supports British industry's
efforts to sell equipment in the Gulf and beyond and we will continue
to do so. I will never be satisfied that we are selling enough
because clearly there is always more that we can do. We put a
lot of effort into making sure that industry is supported. There
are many occasions on which we work together to protect and develop
British jobs. Certainly I would like us to be more successful
because I recognise that the more we are able to sell British
equipment abroad, the more that sustains employment in the United
Kingdom.
93. I want to ask you some questions about the
actual equipment we have got in the region. We visited the Prince
Sultan air base and we had some interesting discussions there
with people about the performance of the Tornado F3. It is quite
clear from the information that I have got and other people have
seen that that aircraft was not designed ideally to fly at the
heights which it does fly at and at the temperatures that it flies
at in the Gulf. Are there any plans to replace or withdraw the
Tornado F3? Are there any reasons at the moment, other than military
and operational reasons, why they are being kept there?
(Mr Hoon) You will be aware that all fast jets, unless
they are specifically designed for flying in the kinds of temperatures
that they operate in in the Gulf, have performance problems at
very high temperatures. That is not a specific characteristic
of the F3, it is a problem of all fast jets when they are designed
to operate in temperate zones. Unless you specifically design
an aircraft to perform in very hot temperatures, and clearly you
could do that, you are going to face these kinds of performance
difficulties. We are constantly looking at ways in which we can
improve the performance of the F3, indeed of our other aircraft
operating there, in order to make sure that they do not suffer
adverse performance. For example, additional cooling equipment
has been provided for all of the Bolton F3s and that is a way
of minimising the impact of temperature on performance.
94. The F3 in no way compares with the United
States' F15s which can fly at 40,000 feet without great difficulty.
(Mr Hoon) If I have not made this point to the Committee
before then I need to do so, and I need to go on repeating it.
I saw the US Defence Secretary most recently in Washington and
he had just agreed the level of his budget and it was in the order
of $192 billion for this year. That does mean that the United
States has an ability to procure more aircraft more quickly and
more effectively than we do.
95. I accept that, and the Tornados are not
new aircraft either, but nevertheless we now have a problem, at
least there is a question of serviceability, the number of times
that an aircraft cannot fly because of the temperature or because
of some problem. Is there a danger that if we continue indefinitely
with these no fly zones and we keep the contribution at the present
level that we will not have sufficient aircraft which can be maintained
at the necessary serviceability level so that we will be constantly
having problems whereby aircraft have to be cannibalised for parts
to keep the ones that we have got in operation going? That is
not particularly good for the crew morale. I do not know if the
Air Commodore wants to comment on that. It was put to us quite
strongly by some of the people working there that this was not
an ideal situation.
(Air Commodore Torpy) I think I can reassure the Committee
that we can sustain the force that we have, both the GR1 force
and also the F3 force, for as long as the no fly zone operation
is likely to continue. One thing I would point out is that clearly
all of our operational detachments, and that is not just in the
Gulf, receive priority for spares and also the manpower who are
actually in theatre have no distractions whatsoever, unlike when
they are operating back in their various main operating bases
where there are other duties which take them away from servicing
aeroplanes. There is good evidence that we can provide which shows
that serviceability of aircraft in all of our operational attachments
is more than adequate to meet the task that we have been set by
the commander in the field.
96. This has gone on for many years now. If
we look ahead another nine or ten years will the Eurofighter be
able to do this job? Will it be the right aircraft designed for
different terrains and different regions of the world?
(Air Commodore Torpy) The Eurofighter will be an ideal
aeroplane to do exactly what the F3 is doing and, in fact, is
very much akin to the sort of performance, in fact better than
that of the F15s.
97. It will not have the temperature problems?
(Air Commodore Torpy) No, it will not.
Chairman
98. I hope that to sustain the Anglo-American
special relationship, Secretary of State, you will not take Defence
Secretary Cohen to watch Derby County.
(Mr Hoon) I am getting seriously concerned about this.
99. Or Chelsea I might add.
(Mr Hoon) I happen to know that the Defence Secretary
is a very fine sportsman and I am sure he would appreciate the
very fine sporting qualities on display at Derby County.
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