Examination of witnesses (Questions 200
- 211)
WEDNESDAY 25 OCTOBER 2000
JENNY WATSON
and JAYNE MONKHOUSE
200. Do you accept it is more challenging for
the Armed Forces to be able to find the ideal work environment
for a returning Mum?
(Ms Monkhouse) Yes, I do. I think the conditions of
the Services are quite extreme and are difficult for women with
family commitments to be able to accommodate both having a child
and working to their full capacity. It may well be that more extensive
career break schemes should be available. These are available
in civilian life and are taken advantage of more, especially by
women but also by men. This could be of major importance and significance
to women in the Armed Services.
(Ms Watson) I think you pick on an interesting point,
there is a point about the Armed Services competing in the modern
market place for the best people to get the jobs. Because of the
unique situation that they have, we need to be able to send people
off, literally at a moment's notice, to a particular situation.
It is then very difficult for them to compete in that market place,
where there are employers who are offering higher pay but also
very much more flexible working and greater benefits in terms
of extending maternity leave or career breaks. Unless they are
able to look at their policy and reassess how they might compete,
they are going to lose out because people are going to choose
to go elsewhere.
201. Do you accept there is any credibility
in the argument that a mother is less likely to be willing to
put her life on the line than a father?
(Ms Watson) I do not know of anything that would—
202. There is no basis to that whatsoever. There
is a suggestion that somebody thought that was a point worth asking.
I am glad you and I have the same view on that.
(Ms Watson) I think fathers find it as difficult to
leave their children as mothers do. One of the reasons for people
leaving—indeed the Chief of Defence Staff has recognised
it—is that the impact on family life is very, very difficult.
Mr Hancock: Representing Service people,
like I do, and like Peter Viggers, I have never had it put to
me that it was more of a problem for a woman than a man. They
just got on and did the job as they always had.
Chairman: Thank you.
Laura Moffatt
203. I would like to address the issue of sexual
harassment. In the paper that the EOC submitted you acknowledge
that it still remains a huge problem. Women deal with it in all
sorts of ways, but there is a suspicion that women feel unable
to come forward to share what may be happening to them because
of the effect on their career prospects. I suspect that happens
in all sorts of places, I do not think it is special to the Armed
Forces. Could you just give us help and advice on any information
that you have on this particular subject?
(Ms Monkhouse) Regrettably, the majority of the women
who come to us are women who are about to leave or who have left
the Armed Services. That suggests to us that the culture prevailing
in the Armed Services is one that is not conducive to them making
a complaint while they are in there and expecting it to be dealt
with. I think there is some evidence that complaints are actually
going down. Just because you have no complaints does not mean
you have no sexual harassment. What is required is a culture that
supports the complainant and deals with their complaint swiftly
and speedily. The longer it continues the worse it becomes. It
is a difficult issue and, as you so rightly said, people deal
with it in a variety of ways. Most women, certainly in a culture
that they recognise as being a difficult culture—you are
not going to be a shrinking violet to join the Armed Services—they
put up, perhaps, with more than they might expect to do in civilian
life. That is certainly what they say to us when they do come
to us. They think it will stop. They try to cope with it and it
is only at the very end of their tether that they do make a complaint.
We would like the culture to become more supportive of that. There
is some evidence that the Forces are dealing with it. I think
there is an element of saying, well, if people do not complain
it does not give the Armed Services an opportunity to test their
policies are working. It is a difficult issue, and certainly one
that will not be resolved overnight. The biggest thing is that
once it becomes known that a complaint has been dealt with effectively
more complainants will come forward.
(Ms Watson) I would like to stress that one of the
critical factors in dealing with the issue of sexual harassment
through the chain of command is the leadership. If you have leadership
it is clear that this sort of behaviour is not tolerated—we
know that as many men are as outraged as women. It gives a very
clear statement of the vision for that team to the people who
are serving and makes it absolutely clear where the line is drawn
and things can be dealt with. Leadership is a critical factor
in making sure women are able to come forward. The nature of sexual
harassment is it is often not done in public but in a private
environment and the men are often as shocked when they hear that
this has been going on in their unit. It is an issue that needs
readjusting and reassurance.
204. That is interesting. You mentioned a couple
of times that it must be dealt with. I would like to move on to
how they deal with it. Is it a question of actually moving straight
to a disciplinary action? You rightly say that very often women
at the end of their tether say, "I have had enough. I have
had this for years", or whatever. What does "deal with
it" mean? There is a suggestion. I do not believe it for
one moment—that it is just a question of education for men,
a little help to understand what is appropriate and what is not.
I do not believe that. I am sorry, I just do not believe it. How
do we deal with sexual harassment, does it mean disciplinary action
always?
(Ms Monkhouse) I tend to agree with you. There may
be a small element of people for whom education is the appropriate
course of action. Sexual harassment is usually deliberate and
it is designed to undermine people at work and to get them to
leave by whatever means, which includes sexually offensive means
as well. It has to be clear what behaviour is and is not acceptable.
I think the Armed Services have set about making that clear to
individuals. When somebody makes a complaint it has to be—I
use the phrase again—dealt with effectively. There have
to be standards set by the Armed Services themselves. There is
no use going to the individual complainant and saying, "What
do you want?" Most of them will say, "I just want it
to stop". There can be sexual harassment that may be more
offensive than on other occasions. People have to be disciplined
and an example shown.
(Ms Watson) I think there is also a point about the
nature of the harassment. There is anecdotal evidence to show
that for some women over a prolonged period of time the level
of sexual innuendo that exists in the Armed Services becomes incredibly
wearing and starts to constitute harassment. It may be that some
of the men are not aware of the effects their comments are having
over a long period of time. That may mean going and saying, "Just
leave it out, because this is offensive". There are other
cases where the sexual harassment is extremely severe, and in
that case disciplinary action would be absolutely necessary. In
both those incidents it is about leadership, it is about the person
in charge going in and saying, "This has to stop".
205. Have you had any feedback from the confidential
line that the Army set up to be able to deal with such matters?
Have you had a look at that?
(Ms Monkhouse) The Armed Services do report back to
us about the level of complaints that are recorded through the
help line. We do not get any detailed feedback about what is going
on.
206. Would it be helpful, to assist you in your
work, if you knew in more detail?
(Ms Monkhouse) We do tend to exchange information
about cases but we do not have any details. We have the general
information. It is for the Armed Services to sort this out themselves,
although the Commission can give help and advice about how to
structure their complaints mechanism. The Armed Services are the
ones that are responsible for dealing with this.
Mr Hancock
207. I was pleased to hear, and I hope I heard
right, in your early answers to Laura Moffatt, that you felt that
the number of cases of sexual harassment that had been reported
had dropped. Did I hear you correctly?
(Ms Monkhouse) That is the information that has been
given to us by the Armed Services themselves, by the Ministry
of Defence. Our cases as well are going down, yes.
208. What do you think, yourselves, has brought
about that change? Is it the wider population joining the Armed
Forces, rather than previously a fairly narrow group of individuals
joining? Do you think it now reflects more the community they
come from?
(Ms Watson) There is a clearer understanding that
it is unacceptable behaviour. That is the first point to make.
As Jayne has also said, because there are no complaints it does
not mean sexual harassment does not exist. What we have also seen
is that the complaints about bullying have increased. What we
found interesting is whether or not people are perceiving what
happens to them as bullying rather than sexual harassment, because
that is another acceptable way of taking that complaint forward.
It is equally clear to us that a large number of women do not
choose to make a complaint because it will have a negative effect
on their career. For that reason we would like to see some more
informal discussions, perhaps through focus groups, which might
be a better temperature check.
209. This is a very, very important point. For
the record, would you say that there are a number of sexual harassment
situations, affecting both men and women—it is not just
women who suffer from it—that are not reported because the
people, (1) have no confidence that it will not damage their career
if they complain and (2) they are not altogether sure that it
will be taken seriously. Are both or one of those serious impediments?
(Ms Monkhouse) Those are probably two of the main
reasons. Individuals always say to us, all they wanted was for
it to stop. They do not want their perpetrator's career to suffer
either. When they are part of a small team they do not want the
team cohesion to suffer either, they just want the sexual harassment
to stop.
210. Do they come to you before or after they
have gone through the Service chain of command?
(Ms Monkhouse) It can be either. They try to go through
the Service chain of command. They are all informed of the Commission's
address and telephone number. They are able to contact us if they
so wish for advice. The majority of our complainants, as I said,
come to us when they have left or when they are about to leave.
211. That is sad.
(Ms Watson) It is very clear from what they said to
us then and as we are going around talking to them, a number of
them feel they have to adapt to behaviour that they would not
adapt to in civilian life. They make a choice because they have
chosen that career. That shows their commitment to the life that
they have chosen to lead in the Armed Services. It should not
have to be like that. That is an area we want to work with the
Armed Services on.
(Ms Monkhouse) I should make the point that having
made their complaint a lot of people complain about the length
of time it takes to resolve it.
Chairman: Thank you both very much. That
was very helpful. If you have any more information, because it
will be some months before we conclude our inquiry, please contact
us.
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