Select Committee on Defence Minutes of Evidence



Examination of witnesses (Questions 200 - 211)

WEDNESDAY 25 OCTOBER 2000

JENNY WATSON and JAYNE MONKHOUSE

  200. Do you accept it is more challenging for the Armed Forces to be able to find the ideal work environment for a returning Mum?
  (Ms Monkhouse) Yes, I do. I think the conditions of the Services are quite extreme and are difficult for women with family commitments to be able to accommodate both having a child and working to their full capacity. It may well be that more extensive career break schemes should be available. These are available in civilian life and are taken advantage of more, especially by women but also by men. This could be of major importance and significance to women in the Armed Services.
  (Ms Watson) I think you pick on an interesting point, there is a point about the Armed Services competing in the modern market place for the best people to get the jobs. Because of the unique situation that they have, we need to be able to send people off, literally at a moment's notice, to a particular situation. It is then very difficult for them to compete in that market place, where there are employers who are offering higher pay but also very much more flexible working and greater benefits in terms of extending maternity leave or career breaks. Unless they are able to look at their policy and reassess how they might compete, they are going to lose out because people are going to choose to go elsewhere.

  201. Do you accept there is any credibility in the argument that a mother is less likely to be willing to put her life on the line than a father?
  (Ms Watson) I do not know of anything that would—

  202. There is no basis to that whatsoever. There is a suggestion that somebody thought that was a point worth asking. I am glad you and I have the same view on that.
  (Ms Watson) I think fathers find it as difficult to leave their children as mothers do. One of the reasons for people leaving—indeed the Chief of Defence Staff has recognised it—is that the impact on family life is very, very difficult.

  Mr Hancock: Representing Service people, like I do, and like Peter Viggers, I have never had it put to me that it was more of a problem for a woman than a man. They just got on and did the job as they always had.

  Chairman: Thank you.

Laura Moffatt

  203. I would like to address the issue of sexual harassment. In the paper that the EOC submitted you acknowledge that it still remains a huge problem. Women deal with it in all sorts of ways, but there is a suspicion that women feel unable to come forward to share what may be happening to them because of the effect on their career prospects. I suspect that happens in all sorts of places, I do not think it is special to the Armed Forces. Could you just give us help and advice on any information that you have on this particular subject?
  (Ms Monkhouse) Regrettably, the majority of the women who come to us are women who are about to leave or who have left the Armed Services. That suggests to us that the culture prevailing in the Armed Services is one that is not conducive to them making a complaint while they are in there and expecting it to be dealt with. I think there is some evidence that complaints are actually going down. Just because you have no complaints does not mean you have no sexual harassment. What is required is a culture that supports the complainant and deals with their complaint swiftly and speedily. The longer it continues the worse it becomes. It is a difficult issue and, as you so rightly said, people deal with it in a variety of ways. Most women, certainly in a culture that they recognise as being a difficult culture—you are not going to be a shrinking violet to join the Armed Services—they put up, perhaps, with more than they might expect to do in civilian life. That is certainly what they say to us when they do come to us. They think it will stop. They try to cope with it and it is only at the very end of their tether that they do make a complaint. We would like the culture to become more supportive of that. There is some evidence that the Forces are dealing with it. I think there is an element of saying, well, if people do not complain it does not give the Armed Services an opportunity to test their policies are working. It is a difficult issue, and certainly one that will not be resolved overnight. The biggest thing is that once it becomes known that a complaint has been dealt with effectively more complainants will come forward.
  (Ms Watson) I would like to stress that one of the critical factors in dealing with the issue of sexual harassment through the chain of command is the leadership. If you have leadership it is clear that this sort of behaviour is not tolerated—we know that as many men are as outraged as women. It gives a very clear statement of the vision for that team to the people who are serving and makes it absolutely clear where the line is drawn and things can be dealt with. Leadership is a critical factor in making sure women are able to come forward. The nature of sexual harassment is it is often not done in public but in a private environment and the men are often as shocked when they hear that this has been going on in their unit. It is an issue that needs readjusting and reassurance.

  204. That is interesting. You mentioned a couple of times that it must be dealt with. I would like to move on to how they deal with it. Is it a question of actually moving straight to a disciplinary action? You rightly say that very often women at the end of their tether say, "I have had enough. I have had this for years", or whatever. What does "deal with it" mean? There is a suggestion. I do not believe it for one moment—that it is just a question of education for men, a little help to understand what is appropriate and what is not. I do not believe that. I am sorry, I just do not believe it. How do we deal with sexual harassment, does it mean disciplinary action always?
  (Ms Monkhouse) I tend to agree with you. There may be a small element of people for whom education is the appropriate course of action. Sexual harassment is usually deliberate and it is designed to undermine people at work and to get them to leave by whatever means, which includes sexually offensive means as well. It has to be clear what behaviour is and is not acceptable. I think the Armed Services have set about making that clear to individuals. When somebody makes a complaint it has to be—I use the phrase again—dealt with effectively. There have to be standards set by the Armed Services themselves. There is no use going to the individual complainant and saying, "What do you want?" Most of them will say, "I just want it to stop". There can be sexual harassment that may be more offensive than on other occasions. People have to be disciplined and an example shown.
  (Ms Watson) I think there is also a point about the nature of the harassment. There is anecdotal evidence to show that for some women over a prolonged period of time the level of sexual innuendo that exists in the Armed Services becomes incredibly wearing and starts to constitute harassment. It may be that some of the men are not aware of the effects their comments are having over a long period of time. That may mean going and saying, "Just leave it out, because this is offensive". There are other cases where the sexual harassment is extremely severe, and in that case disciplinary action would be absolutely necessary. In both those incidents it is about leadership, it is about the person in charge going in and saying, "This has to stop".

  205. Have you had any feedback from the confidential line that the Army set up to be able to deal with such matters? Have you had a look at that?
  (Ms Monkhouse) The Armed Services do report back to us about the level of complaints that are recorded through the help line. We do not get any detailed feedback about what is going on.

  206. Would it be helpful, to assist you in your work, if you knew in more detail?
  (Ms Monkhouse) We do tend to exchange information about cases but we do not have any details. We have the general information. It is for the Armed Services to sort this out themselves, although the Commission can give help and advice about how to structure their complaints mechanism. The Armed Services are the ones that are responsible for dealing with this.

Mr Hancock

  207. I was pleased to hear, and I hope I heard right, in your early answers to Laura Moffatt, that you felt that the number of cases of sexual harassment that had been reported had dropped. Did I hear you correctly?
  (Ms Monkhouse) That is the information that has been given to us by the Armed Services themselves, by the Ministry of Defence. Our cases as well are going down, yes.

  208. What do you think, yourselves, has brought about that change? Is it the wider population joining the Armed Forces, rather than previously a fairly narrow group of individuals joining? Do you think it now reflects more the community they come from?
  (Ms Watson) There is a clearer understanding that it is unacceptable behaviour. That is the first point to make. As Jayne has also said, because there are no complaints it does not mean sexual harassment does not exist. What we have also seen is that the complaints about bullying have increased. What we found interesting is whether or not people are perceiving what happens to them as bullying rather than sexual harassment, because that is another acceptable way of taking that complaint forward. It is equally clear to us that a large number of women do not choose to make a complaint because it will have a negative effect on their career. For that reason we would like to see some more informal discussions, perhaps through focus groups, which might be a better temperature check.

  209. This is a very, very important point. For the record, would you say that there are a number of sexual harassment situations, affecting both men and women—it is not just women who suffer from it—that are not reported because the people, (1) have no confidence that it will not damage their career if they complain and (2) they are not altogether sure that it will be taken seriously. Are both or one of those serious impediments?
  (Ms Monkhouse) Those are probably two of the main reasons. Individuals always say to us, all they wanted was for it to stop. They do not want their perpetrator's career to suffer either. When they are part of a small team they do not want the team cohesion to suffer either, they just want the sexual harassment to stop.

  210. Do they come to you before or after they have gone through the Service chain of command?
  (Ms Monkhouse) It can be either. They try to go through the Service chain of command. They are all informed of the Commission's address and telephone number. They are able to contact us if they so wish for advice. The majority of our complainants, as I said, come to us when they have left or when they are about to leave.

  211. That is sad.
  (Ms Watson) It is very clear from what they said to us then and as we are going around talking to them, a number of them feel they have to adapt to behaviour that they would not adapt to in civilian life. They make a choice because they have chosen that career. That shows their commitment to the life that they have chosen to lead in the Armed Services. It should not have to be like that. That is an area we want to work with the Armed Services on.
  (Ms Monkhouse) I should make the point that having made their complaint a lot of people complain about the length of time it takes to resolve it.

  Chairman: Thank you both very much. That was very helpful. If you have any more information, because it will be some months before we conclude our inquiry, please contact us.


 
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