Examination of witnesses (Questions 240
- 247)
WEDNESDAY 25 OCTOBER 2000
MR GURBUX
SINGH and MR
BOB PURKISS
Chairman
240. We are not arguing too seriously. As 1
o'clock approaches we are in a provocative mode.
(Mr Purkiss) I understand the point. I think legally
it would be best not to go down that road.
Dr Lewis
241. I have to say, I was not recommending that
policy. My preference, for what it is worth, is for a mixed strategy,
rather as occurred with Jewish people in the Second World War:
if you go to the airborne cemetery at Oosterbeek you will see
Stars of David liberally scattered amongst the crosses on the
headstones, but there was also separate Jewish Brigade which fought
in a distinguished way in the desert. It is just that given that
so many individuals from minority communities often have to fight
and win personal battles to prove they are better than average
to be accepted, even on an ordinary level, when a unit can do
that as a whole I feel it can sometimes make a breakthrough for
the whole of the community. As time is so pressing perhaps we
should leave that. Do you feel that those personnel who are from
the ethnic minorities, who are already serving, are being used
sufficiently for purposes of recruitment and, if not, how could
the forces improve?
(Mr Purkiss) The ethnic minority recruiting teams
that all three services have have sort of recruited from the ethnic
minority communities with different degrees of success. The army
have brought together a team, who are a team and travel together
and stay together. The RAF have been less successful, they brought
together the team as and when they needed them and then they scattered
back as individuals. So they did not really gel as a team and
that is one of the things that we have suggested that they look
at in bringing that together. The navy was similar. Whilst they
had the people there they did not use them in the best way. Also,
within some of the regiments, it is how that is handled. Black
people who have made it, and ethnic minority people, want to be
respected as an individual there, they do not want to be singled
out. It is a delicacy of how you say "Look, what we want
you to do is help overcome some barriers and identify what might
be within the Sikh community or within this community that you
may have some knowledge of and how you can break that down".
That is being more and more successful and, as I said, in my mind
has been one of the reasons why you have got about 200,000 people
coming to these events because they went back into the community
and said "This is a good thing".
[Mr Viggers took the Chair]
Mr Viggers: We are getting very short
of time. We have got a lot of territory to cover, we really need
to press on if we possibly can. Mr Hancock, question number 17.
Mr Hancock
242. One of the suggestions that has been made
in one of the briefs we have received is that the failure of the
ethnic minorities to succeed in getting into the services and
then to be promoted within the services is the overall selection
tests are in some way geared against them. I do not happen to
feel that is a legitimate point to make but I would be interested
to know what your views are on whether or not there is any basis
in that and if there is any basis in it is there a way in which
that can be changed without lowering in any way the standards
or suggesting that the standards are going to be lowered?
(Mr Singh) Clearly it is the case that the selection
tests have a disproportionate impact on minority applicants as
opposed to white applicants. Indeed, we have raised this matter
with the three services and they are looking at this issue very
seriously. They wish to try and develop a selection test process
which applies across the three services which, having looked very
carefully at the content of the test, would actually remove any
bias that may be built into it.
243. What do you think the bias is? That is
what I cannot understand. I do not see it.
(Mr Purkiss) Can I quickly say that the purpose of
the test is for the selected trade that you want to go into. Therefore,
if you do not reach the test for that trade you fail. What we
are suggesting is that there should be a test to determine what
your needs are to achieve the level of attainment to go into the
trade. It should be one that is helpful rather than a blocking.
244. Addressees you?
(Mr Purkiss) Yes, addresses you so it is an aptitude
test which says "I would like to go into that trade. This
is where I am" and then someone can analyse that and say
"Well, this is what you will have to do". Then we can
use the positive aspect of the Race Relations Act to be able to
offer additional training to those people who need it.
Mr Hancock: That is exceptionally helpful.
Mr Hood
245. I feel I am obliged now to put on record
my experience in Kosovo when I met a black sergeant, Sergeant
Ferguson, who was TA and in civvy street and the head teacher
of a South London school. He had just won the Lottery and signed
up for six months in Kosovo. Unbelievable, but I happened to meet
the chap who is doing great work in Pristina, giving educational
advice to the Kosovars. I wanted to just put Sergeant Ferguson
on the record. He will not be very pleased at me doing so but
I have got to do that. What specific positive action would you
like to see the armed forces undertake to ensure greater numbers
of personnel from ethnic minorities reach the NCO rank?
(Mr Purkiss) First of all, I think they have to examine
the timescale that it takes to reach NCO rank. When we questioned
this last time we met the PPOs, the army PPOs in particular, and
they were saying it takes something like 15 years to make a sergeant
because of the need to lead men. When I questioned how long it
took to make an officer it was three years. I think they need
to be able to really learn some lessons from the Americans because
the level of black NCOs in the American armed forces is 45%, totally
out of proportion to the number of black people in the American
army. That was because they realised that was important. I think
we need to do more training, we need to do more assessment and
how do you put everyone through. I would hesitate to say something
which just benefits one group, I think there are a lot of people
with ability—white, ethnic minority people—within
the armed forces who need to be pushed through and assessed better
for their ability to move up the chain of command quicker.
Mr Viggers
246. Is racial harassment and bullying a significant
problem or is it more a general feeling that racial minorities
are not made welcome?
(Mr Singh) The evidence we have is based upon individual
cases that have come to us. The second source is the RAF survey
which the RAF itself carried out. From both those two sources
the whole question of harassment and bullying is a serious matter.
It is a matter which needs to be treated seriously. The evidence
that particularly came out of the RAF survey did show three things.
One, that in the eyes of the people who are serving within the
RAF was that 60% felt that racial discrimination existed. Secondly,
that a significant number of them felt that harassment and bullying
was a feature of life within the RAF. Thirdly, I think perhaps
the most significant thing, there is a reluctance to formally
report, a desire not to use the complaints' processes to have
remedies which would then address these. The belief was that if
complaints were made this would have an adverse impact on career
opportunities. The evidence is there and it is something which
clearly the three services need to take up very seriously.
Mr Hood
247. Are there examples of best practice in
equal opportunities training which you have seen in particular
parts of the armed forces and which could be disseminated to those
who do it less well?
(Mr Purkiss) Yes. Very quickly. Whilst they have gone
through the whole concept of Shrivenham—1,500 people have
gone through there—that has been a general training and
then the individuals left. There has been no assessment of that
training. I think you have to raise the general level of awareness.
Again, in one particular regiment the commanding officer on a
regular basis brings together people from right across the regiments
in groups of 15. So you have senior officers right down to privates
and they just come into a room and sit down for a couple of hours,
usually they invite then someone like a black police inspector
to come in and say a few things, and then they have just a general
discussion. Now that raises that level of awareness but it also
goes out, and because it is done on a regular basis it soon permeates
throughout the whole regiment. That is done in only one regiment
that I know of. That would be a good example, in my mind, of how
you spread it around. I tried it with a group down in an RAF station
from an air marshal down and after two hours that produced a lot
of discussion that they had never had before. Everyone said that
was the best learning experience they had had.
(Mr Singh) I think the point surely must also be that
there should be some sort of impact assessment of training. Yes,
it is great to have training but so what? What is the consequence?
To what extent has behaviour changed the consequence of that training?
That is something which needs to be looked at.
Mr Viggers: Gentlemen, thank you very
much for coming today. Since the 1996 Report, which indicated
dissatisfaction with the Ministry of Defence attitude, we have
had every kind of positive and willing statement from the Government
but the fact is that progress has been glacially slow. You have
a situation where you will produce a report which we can take
account of in the Armed Forces Bill. Of course we will take account
of what you say in our own report. We hope you will be absolutely
frank in spelling the facts out to the public in advance of that
report early next year. Thank you very much indeed for coming.
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