Examination of witnesses (Questions 480
- 499)
WEDNESDAY 22 NOVEMBER 2000
MRS LIZZIE
IRON, MRS
MAXINE JAMES
and MRS DENISE
MOUNTAIN
Mr Hancock
480. Have all three of you made representations
to the Ministry of Defence about facilities afforded to you so
you can meet more often as an organisation coming together?
(Mrs Mountain) No.
(Mrs James) No.
(Mrs Iron) No.
481. Would it be sensible to do that?
(Mrs James) Perhaps.
(Mrs Iron) We have managed on an informal basis. We
are on the phone to each other.
(Mrs James) With policies like AFOPS coming to fruition
there is a need for more joint discussion about those policies
and how they are going to affect all of our families in very different
ways, how they are going to impact on them and how we are going
to deal with that as a trio, presenting it back to the policy
makers. I think the schedules that we have and the sort of budgets
we are on, with the timescales, and the pressure of our work is
increasing all of the time, and that does make that more and more
difficult to achieve. We do make sure we get together most definitely
before Service Families Task Force and identify our issues. We
also have meetings within SP Pol (Service Personnel Policy) as
well, separate to the Families Forum meeting, which enables us
to consolidate the areas we are coming from. We also gain advice
from those meetings as to how to get the most from the Families
Forum meeting.
482. Can I follow that up, I am interested in
what does not get done for the Service family when they join or
have a partner. What about your role in telling your families
and partners of Service personnel about your existence? How do
you go about letting people know where you are and what you can
and cannot do for them?
(Mrs James) With great difficulty. The main stumbling
block for all of us is the Data Protection Act, which the Navy
is doing very well on at the moment. It will be nice when the
new next-of-kin forms they are producing comes into effect. It
has something similar to a junk mail opt out system, where you
can tick a box if you do not wish to receive information. Clearly
it is not going to be a catch all to make sure that we hit all
families and say, "We are here, this is what you can use
us for, take or leave us at any point in your career". Very
recently we have had permission to go to HMS Raleigh, which is
the recruit training centre for the Navy, and attend the families
pass out days there, where we can grab the parents, if you like,
or the family of a new recruit and say, "This is who we are,
this is what we do and can do for you, just to let you know we
are here". Once they go through that process it is then extremely
difficult for all of us to access the families directly. The Service
itself is trying to combat this and the centre also has this difficulty.
I know the MoD tried to publish the Service Families purple leaflet
last year and much publicity was given to the fact it was sending
it out. Unfortunately they did it like we have to do everything,
which is via the serving person, and I suspect a large proportion
ended up in file X, the bin. I think all elements of MoD, the
Services and ourselves have tried that system and proved consistently
that it does not work. Unfortunately data protection does not
allow us to mail out to our families via the next-of-kin database.
Chairman
483. In the course of your work how often would
you meet ministers?
(Mrs James) Probably two or three times a year.
(Mrs Iron) Ministers will contact us if they have
a view on something that we can contribute to, that has happened.
Chairman: We will come back to that.
Mr Gapes
484. How do you fund your organisations? How
do you determine who becomes the officers?
(Mrs Iron) Ours is funded mostly by non-public money,
which is the Army Central Fund. Military donations are made to
this central bank and it is a charitable fund for disbursement
for uses of welfare and support of dependants. How do we appoint
our officers? The Chairman goes through an interview panel, which
includes one of the trustees of that fund, and we advertise in
our own magazine. We have a magazine we produce four times a year.
We have also just launched our own website. We advertise through
our communication network and we have co-ordinators on the ground.
It is internal. Our advertising is internal to our own target
audience.
Chairman
485. How much would the MoD give you for your
work?
(Mrs Iron) We are funded about £300,000 a year.
That is mostly non-public money.
(Mrs James) We tend to have a split of public and
non-public funding. There is quite a large differential between
the amount of funding between the three organisations, the Navy
sits somewhere in the middle, the Army has the most funding and
Airwaves has the least funding—do not ask me why that is,
that is as it is. The mixture for us is about a 50/50 split between
non-public and public funding. Similarly to the Army, our non-public
funds come out of the Sailors' Fund and Fleet Amenities Fund,
which is a contributing charity by serving and ex-serving personnel
and their families. The public money comes from the welfare pot
of the Navy. We have to make a financial bid on an annual basis
as to how much money we think we need and then the Navy decides
how much of that we are going to get. As to how we appoint our
officers, we are really very new. I am the Chairman of this organisation
and have really placed the foundations down. In April next year
we are going to recruit a replacement for myself, which is when
we will go through that process, all of our employees are families
of serving people. That is quite important, that the people we
employ have a good understanding and appreciation for what our
families go through.
(Mrs Mountain) Airwaves, the RAF families association
is funded by public and non-public funds. I was appointed by the
Executive Committee, the Executive Committee are appointed from
amongst the representative membership and the representatives
are station-based. We advertise on stations for representatives
to come forward. They are cleared by a station, insofar as we
approach the station to ask if there is an objection to a particular
person for any particular reason.
486. Has there ever any objection?
(Mrs Mountain) I do not think there has been. They
are then trained and appointed to work on that station. If they
are moved because of their husband's posting or wife's posting
then we approach the next station, ask if there is an objection
and if there is no representative there they may continue. If
I can go back to the access to families issues, ours is slightly
different from Maxine's, because more people are on station we
can access our families more readily. We have a magazine which
we publish four times a year, which comes into HIVEs and other
public areas in stations. It goes to Service personnel as well
as families. Because there is a representative on many, if not
all, stations they advertise their presence widely in public areas
so that people can approach them as well.
Mr Cann
487. Which are the best charities for me to
give money to if it is going to be funnelled through to the welfare
of families in the Services? Obviously it is not Oxfam.
(Mrs Iron) The Army Benevolent Fund.
(Mrs James) Families usually know about the Royal
Navy Benevolent Fund.
488. You get something like 100% of it, do you?
(Mrs James) No, we do not get money from those at
all. We only get money from the Sailors Fund and the Fleet Amenities
Fund.
Chairman
489. I can recall in our fight—unsuccessful
I might add—over the sale of MoD housing there was a lot
of pressure applied by the Ministry of Defence, certainly on Army
wives and it was quite nasty, it was really very nasty. The reason
I ask for the percentage is, does this give the Ministry of Defence
any leverage over your activities? What percentage derives from
the Ministry of Defence, have you ever been leaned on, seriously
leaned on, not to press an issue?
(Mrs Iron) To my knowledge the housing was the only
major one, which I think you know about.
490. Yes.
(Mrs Iron) One of the reasons I have been asked to
review our funding currently and one of the reasons for keeping
our main funding to come from the Army central fund is that although
military money goes into it, it is non-public money and the military,
therefore, does not have that leverage. We are proud of our independence.
Families use us because we are independent. The chain of command
values us for our independence.
(Mrs James) Clearly, sometimes there are going to
be issues that we deal with and push for because by the nature
of our work we are sometimes going to be critical or be looking
very closely at some of the services offered to families and the
way that policies are set up. Sometimes it can be uncomfortable
for them. I think that Lizzie is right, we are valued for our
independence.
Mr Gapes
491. Can I ask about the Army, do you have any
contact or regular contact with the Army Welfare Service and with
SSAFA Forces Help? What is your assessment and the assessment
of your members about the help that they receive from those organisations?
(Mrs Iron) We do. We have regular contact with them.
We are on various Committees that SSAFA Forces Help set up. The
Army Welfare Service, yes, I have direct contact with AWS if I
want it for any reason. The people's views of the service vary
with what experience they have themselves. We have a survey out
at the moment, which I would like to leave you a copy of, which
asks a lot of these questions, and one of the questions it asks
is, "Do you know about AWS, SSAFA Forces Help", and
two other agencies, and "what is your opinion of them?"
I am canvassing to find out what their views are. They are mixed.
They are very mixed, because some people get a very good service
from one or other, some people get a very good service from a
support team, which is currently made of up SSAFA Forces Help
and AWS together and the families who get that help may not know
which individual is helping them or which label they are wearing.
492. In general, your members have a relatively
positive view, would they?
(Mrs Iron) Some do and some do not. There is a concern
about the confidentiality of the AWS. Because they are all connected
to the chain of command there is certainly a perception that any
trouble that is taken to them is then transferred to the chain
of command. There is still a very genuine and widespread fear
that any welfare problems will affect the promotion of the husband's
career. The military likes to think that has been resolved but
I am afraid to say it has not. Although all of the mechanisms
are in place to go to the chain of command for support they do
not. They are genuinely afraid that these things will affect their
husband's promotion.
493. Is this a perception or is it reality?
(Mrs Iron) It is a perception which is based on historical
reality. I think a lot has happened recently to improve support
for families and I think we are still waiting to see whether people
can really trust the system that is in place.
494. It will take a long time.
(Mrs Iron) It will take a long time for the historical
perception to be resolved.
495. You talked about your contacts with the
Army Welfare Service, do you have contact with ministers at any
time or with the senior serving officers?
(Mrs Iron) I have contact with whomever I like whenever
I like. I think it is in the interests of the families to make
sure that I address issues at the right level first. Are you referring
to the current situation?
Mr Gapes: No, it is a general question.
Mr Hood
496. Can you tell us about the current situation
as well?
(Mrs Iron) There is a current situation. I have made
a presentation.
Chairman
497. What is the current situation, please?
(Mrs Iron) There is a reassessment of the welfare
system support that the Army gives to its families. It involves
the relationship between AWS and SSAFA Forces Help. I have made
representations to the people who are making the decisions and
I hope they will take note.[2]
Mr Cann: It is very difficult, Chairman,
because everyone knows if the wife gives the old man a hard time,
the old man is not going to give you triple A on his file. No
system is going to get around that, is it? It is all about people,
is it not? It is about altering the mind set of people that needs
doing.
Mr Hood
498. On the perception about promotion being
affected by problems that come through your organisation, we as
MPs will experience that. I have had a grandmother of a child
who came to see me about her granddaughter. The child's mother
was married to a guy in the Army. I have strict instructions not
to let it be known that it is that particular family, the perception
is pretty well a dog-end sort of thing.
(Mrs Mountain) If we did not guarantee confidentiality
to the people who approach us, 50% of them would not approach
us.
499. What are you doing to combat that?
(Mrs James) It is a trust issue, it is based on trust.
In any large organisation, for instance in the Police Service
or the Fire Service, anything where you have a uniformed organisation
where families are a support to that Service, I think you tend
to get this feeling existing, like you said yourself. Building
trust with the families from our perspective. If we can recommend
or endorse a certain organisation that we know to be valid and
to be without that sort of influence, that goes a long way to
those families using that Service. First of all, if they trust
us then we can then endorse various different other agencies,
and I think you will start to combat it. If they can trust the
Service that is even better. I do not think they will as quickly
as they would trust us as their representatives. It is within
their interests and other agencies interests to have good relationships
with us and show us that they are on the right track. I think
the Services do that. I am certainly far more convinced through
my contacts with the Second Sea Lord of late that we are certainly
moving on the right track, from the top down, in the Navy. How
long that is going to take to filter down to the families and
show positive effects I do not know. We are a crucial element
in that. If we reassure the family that if you go to the welfare
service, a pack does not follow you around and it is not going
to affect your husband's career. If we keep saying that and they
trust us then, clearly, we are going to have some improvement.
2 See p 182. Back
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