Examination of witnesses (Questions 40
- 59)
WEDNESDAY 8 DECEMBER 1999
Air Vice-Marshal JOE
FRENCH, Group Captain STEPHEN
LLOYD and Brigadier PHILIP
WILDMAN OBE
40. When do you expect full compliance?
(Brigadier Wildman) We are complying now with the
requirements that are placed upon us now. As you are probably
aware, the complexity of the process of both resource accounting
and resource budgeting will grow as the Department matures its
processes, but all those that we are required to do, which is
particularly the creation of full resource accounting, are already
in being and we are reporting to the Ministry.
41. Let me put one more main question on this
aspect. As I said, the MoD in answer to us attributed the problems
to teething problems in implementing resource accounting and budgeting
at JARIC, because you were, therefore, in early implementation,
you were singled out for early implementation of that project.
So I really have difficulty in understanding, or I would like
to focus attention on, why you ran into difficulties. In a way,
if you were put in there early you should have had a head-start
in sorting out the problems or if you had significant problems
to start with, maybe the Ministry of Defence should have chosen
you last after they had got the system up and running everywhere
else. Could you give some clarification on that?
(Group Captain Lloyd) I think your observation is
correct. Given that we had difficulties, early implementation
was seen as an enabler for us because of our situation to start
afresh, populate this new device, and it would accelerate the
pace at which we could get our books in order. The reality of
the matter is that the device that was delivered to us possibly
did not live up to its specification on day one. The net result
is that we spent a lot of our time as an early implementer—which
in hindsight I would suggest was possibly a mistake—fighting
this system and that took us a fair amount of time when probably
we should have been sharp-pencilling the books a bit more before
we got to that state and let somebody else sort CAPITAL out. It
is a lesson learnt, water under the bridge. It did not help us.
The system now is certainly more mature, more reliable than it
was. I am confident that the fixes that are there now in the second
step of CAPITAL will give us a robust tool and, more importantly,
it will give the converged agency a robust tool which we will
bring our joint accounts together under.
Mr Cohen: Thank you for that clarification.
Chairman
42. Gentlemen, the form is that we have your
words recorded and then sent to you for excision, which usually
is most of it. If there is anything you let slip that is absolutely
unclassified, which tends not to be much, then that will be published,
and I would just remind the Committee that anything we have from
now on it not to be disseminated under any circumstances. When
you do read the transcript you will see what is available and
the rest is to be kept absolutely exclusive and that applies also
to the information on Kosovo. The first question really is exploring
the relationship as of now as opposed to what might happen with
the United States. So I would like to ask the two Chief Executives
in particular to respond, exploring that working relationship
with the United State authorities with regard to both JARIC and
the Military Survey. How dependent is each of you on material
provided by the United States?
(Group Captain Lloyd) If I may, Mr Chairman, the relationship
within my discipline in military intelligence dates back actually
to the period of 1943 when the United States joined the exploitation
programme with the United Kingdom during World War 2 and the collection
programme and, indeed during the reverse of Lend-Lease they got
Spitfires and Mosquitoes from the United Kingdom. So it is a very
strong and very long relationship.***
43. And our contribution to our own is the Canberra?
(Group Captain Lloyd) I take from time to time a small
quantity of Canberra imagery into my building, yes.
44. Do we give that to the Americans?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
(Brigadier Wildman) ***
Chairman
45. There are restrictions, obviously, on passing
any information you get on to any third parties without United
States permission?
(Brigadier Wildman) ***
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
46. Do the Canadians and Australians get all
that you get?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
(Brigadier Wildman) ***
Mr Colvin: What are our American allies
saying about the prospect for a European army? Is this relationship,
which is absolutely fundamental to our security intelligence,
after all, not a military cliche? The time spent on reconnaissance
is never wasted, it is vital. If they start withholding intelligence
to us because they think it might be compromised because of our
relationship with, particularly the French—there is no love
lost between America and France—the whole thing is at risk.
How do you view the prospect for a European army?
Chairman: Do not answer that. We are
asking questions of the situation as of now and not of the future.
This is not a question that is going to be dealt with at this
level. It will be a question dealt with at a higher level.
The witnesses were asked to withdraw and
upon their return:
Chairman: We have re-formulated the question.
Mr Colvin
47. The question, now re-formulated, puts the
ball straight into your court. You can answer it in any way that
you wish, broadly or precisely. Are you aware of any factors which
have in the past affected the flow of data from the United States?
Secondly, do you consider that there are any implications in future
developments, based on your past experience, which might affect
this flow?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) I am not aware of any factors
affecting the flow, in answer to your first question. In terms
of your second question, obviously the structure of any European
defence force has yet to be determined but inevitably one of the
aspects that will need to be resolved is the part that intelligence
will play in part on indicators, warning and defence support to
any European force. ***
Chairman
48. On the reciprocal relationship, what does
the United States get from what looks, at first sight, to be a
very one-sided relationship?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
(Brigadier Wildman) We provide a small contribution
in volume terms. We recognise that the armed forces of the two
nations have a series of common requirements, operational air
charts, medium scale mapping and their computer readable equipment.
We collaborate in producing these common products to the benefit
of not merely ourselves but NATO, ***
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
49. Which one is ours?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
50. There is no common training, is there, between
the allies on this or similarity of training?
(Group Captain Lloyd) I will answer that question
on the basis that in a former guise I have been the Commanding
Officer of the Joint School of Photographic Interpretation and
I can answer at that level on my particular discipline. We do
pass Australian and Canadian students through that school. There
is an American exchange officer in the UK school and a UK exchange
officer in the US school in the southern part of the United States.
51. So when you get the pictures and you analyse
them, how many of your comments and conclusions would you pass
over to the others just to match up whether your analysis compares
with the American?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
52. ***
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
Mr Gapes
53. Does the United States make available any
of the material that it gives to you to any other NATO ally?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
54. We are talking about France?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
Mr Cann
55. Does that include Turkey?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
Mr Colvin
56. Presumably there is a relationship also
between the amount of information you are given by the United
States and the use of our sovereign bases by their intelligence-gathering
vehicles like the U-2? In fact, under what treaty is the agreement
for the use of sovereign bases agreed?
(Group Captain Lloyd) ***
57. Are you aware that the United States have
similar agreements for the use of their air bases in any country
other than the United Kingdom and our sovereign bases overseas
like Cyprus?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
Mr Brazier
58. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) ***
Chairman: Please do, yes.
Mr Colvin
59. Really with regard to probably the Military
Survey more than JARIC, are there any other significant potential
sources of imagery and mapping data from commercial satellites,
for example, that could be useful to you? Mr Hancock and I have
been present at considerable debates about the future of the WEU
Torrejon satellite tracking station in Spain, but I am not really
aware of what use that is. It presumably just duplicates what
is already being done elsewhere but could you enlarge upon other
sources of information and Torrejon in particular?
(Air Vice-Marshal French) I certainly can. I cannot
answer on Torrejon because we have not made use of it.
(Brigadier Wildman) What I can say is that, first
of all, we do not particularly wish to be tied exclusively to
any imagery because what we want to have is the best imagery at
the right resolution at any particular time, so we are capable
of exploiting, for instance, Canberra imagery, if we wish, commercial
satellite imagery. We have in the past exploited the French SPOT
imagery, we have exploited the Russian imagery TKB50.
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