WEDNESDAY 19 JANUARY 2000
_________
Members present:
Mr Bruce George, in the Chair
Mr Crispin Blunt
Mr Julian Brazier
Mr Jamie Cann
Mr Harry Cohen
Mr Michael Colvin
Mr Mike Gapes
Mr Mike Hancock
Mr Stephen Hepburn
Mr Jimmy Hood
Laura Moffatt
_________
MR JOHN SPELLAR, a Member of the House, Minister of State for the Armed
Forces, AIR MARSHAL MALCOLM PLEDGER, OBE, AFC, BSC, FRAeS, RAF,
Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (Personnel), VICE ADMIRAL SIR IAN
GARNETT, KCB, Chief of Joint Operations, GENERAL SIR ALEX HARLEY,
KBE, CB, ADC Gen, Adjutant General, AIR MARSHAL SIR ANTHONY BAGNALL,
KCB, OBE, FRAeS, RAF, Air Member for Personnel, COMMODORE PETER
WYKEHAM-MARTIN, RN, Director, Naval Personnel Corporate Programming,
Ministry of Defence, examined.
Chairman
532. Welcome, Minister. I think, at the end of the day, having
seen yourself and your witnesses, your colleagues and the Secretary of State
we will have witnessed the biggest collection of top brass and military,
bureaucratic and political personnel since the ending of the Cold War. Thank
you very much for coming. We have a very long agenda. It is very difficult
for a Welshman to urge precision of speech but I am afraid we are going to
have to in order to complete such a broad agenda. Would someone like to
introduce your team for the Shorthand Writer?
(Mr Spellar) Yes, I will. If we can move from left to right, we have
the Director of Naval Corporate Programmes, Commodore Peter Wykeham-Martin,
representing the 2nd Sea Lord. Sitting next to him we have Vice Admiral Sir
Ian Garnett, the Commander of Joint Operations. To my immediate right we have
Air Marshal Malcolm Pledger, Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, responsible
for personnel. Next we have General Sir Alex Harley, who is the Adjutant
General, and on the far right, for the Royal Air Force, we have the Air Member
for Personnel, Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall.
533. Have you anything you would like to kick off with?
(Mr Spellar) No. I do take your point, Chairman, that you will have
a large number of issues to cover over a wide range, and I thought you would
want to move straight in.
534. Perhaps you can direct the questions; there is no need for
everyone to join in, unless it is necessary. A couple of years after the SDR,
how would you see what was written in relation to undermanning, overstretching
- whichever way you like to see it (I know what my view is) - two years after
the SDR?
(Mr Spellar) Two years on I think there are two key points to make.
One is that I think we need to give "overstretch" a proper definition. That
is, there has undoubtedly been an increase in the pace of operations, driven
by external events, and for a number of individuals, because of their personal
circumstances, and for a number of units, because of requirements or
shortfalls, that leads to overstretch. However, it is a variegated picture
across the armed forces, as I am sure the Committee has found, and a lot of
that, as I said earlier, relates to people's personal circumstances. That is
why we need to tailor responses to that to respond to many of those
circumstances. It is certainly the case that many of the circumstances that
we envisaged during the SDR - and we looked at a programme for rectifying
those deficiencies and moving, essentially, in summary, from a Cold War
structure to a more expeditionary structure - and for which we were tailoring
our forces happened in a much shorter time frame than had been anticipated
while we were actually making those changes. There is no doubt that that has
added to overstretch. The rectifying measures that we have taken had also
been taking place, and are still taking place, but with events also providing
additional pressure.
535. With this wonderful benefit of hindsight, would you have
written anything else two years ago? What would you have done had you looked
in a crystal ball? What would you have substituted for what?
(Mr Spellar) I think what you are seeing is events moving at a rapid
pace, external security and foreign policy events, and those actually,
therefore, driving force and operational requirements, and undoubtedly that
has placed extra pressure. It is not a pressure that the forces have been
unable to respond to, because they have responded magnificently, but we do
accept that there have been pressures, particularly on families. There are
a number of measures, both with regard to the service personnel and also with
regard to their families (which I hope we will outline in some detail during
the course of this evidence) which we are hoping will start to alleviate that
position, and, indeed, are already having a favourable effect.
Chairman: You really do have to get it right, because we think it is
becoming fairly serious. Unless you get it right, you are in deep, deep
trouble.
Mr Blunt
536. Is it your view that the assumptions that underlay the SDR
were and remain valid?
(Mr Spellar) Yes, indeed.
Chairman
537. In July of last year we were told that forces on deployment
as well as those training for or recovering from operations represented 28 per
cent of the Navy's trained strength, 11 per cent of the RAF's strength and 47
per cent of the Army's. That is forces on deployment. Do you have target
percentages for the proportion of the forces deployed from each service below
which you would consider problems of overstretch to have been solved?
(Mr Spellar) With the Army we are, in fact, now back to 28.5 per cent
either currently deployed, about to deploy or recovering from operations,
which is almost within 1 per cent of the figure that we came in with in 1997.
You are absolutely right that this figure went up to 47 per cent at the height
of the Kosovo conflict, which is precisely why we have been taking a number
of measures and making a number of decisions to draw down our forces not only
there but also in Bosnia and elsewhere, in order to alleviate that pressure.
As I said in my introduction, those were decisions that were driven by
operational requirements driven by security and foreign policy necessity.
538. So, on current plans, when do you envisage the proportion of
our forces committed to operations reaching a generally satisfactory level?
(Mr Spellar) Towards the middle of this year we would be hoping to be
down to satisfactory figures, particularly for Bosnia and Kosovo. We have
made some reductions, as you know also, in the Falklands as well, so we are
looking then at getting into a figure that is in balance and which prevents
the disruption to individuals' lives and extending very significantly their
tour intervals. I will ask the Chief of Joint Operations to come in here.
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) Chairman, I would agree with the
Minister because in the reductions we are making in Bosnia, the reductions we
have made in Kosovo and in the three overseas commands, we are continually
looking at ways - and in my last year we carried out manpower surveys in all
three overseas commands, Cyprus and the Falklands - to make quite sure that
only those people we needed to be there to do the mission are involved. With
the Balkans in mind, broadly speaking we hope to be down by the middle of this
year, between Bosnia and Kosovo, about a brigade's worth of people being
deployed.
Chairman: Thank you.
Mr Colvin
539. I would like to develop the question of the pressures on the
Navy, in particular. The memorandum which the Ministry of Defence supplied
us with set out the background to the Navy's minimum time ashore as a result
of the monitoring that has been carried out, but it is a little thin on some
of the information. I appreciate that the minimum time ashore varies from one
rank to another - from 5 to 18 months - and although the standards for minimum
time ashore have not been breached for the last two years, more than a fifth
of the staff categories are down to a minimum - that is 60 categories out of
280. What categories are under most pressure in terms of personnel being
given insufficient time ashore at the moment?
(Mr Spellar) As you say, in general terms the Navy works on a 40/60
sea/shore ratio and they expect that to remain the same in the future, but I
will ask Commodore Wykeham-Martin to fill in the details.
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) Mr Colvin, the branch which is probably
under the most pressure is the Warfare Advance Ratings. They are the ones
where we have had shortages. We are pulling that up now by increasing
recruiting and that situation is slowly getting better, but that is the branch
that I think it is fair to say is under the most pressure in terms of the Able
Rate for the minimum time ashore. However, it is spread across some 16
branches, but, as you mentioned, they are all coming down to that level. What
we have to be careful about is that we do not breach that level and we make
sure that we stay on that minimum time ashore. Of course, what it does mean
is it puts pressure in terms of gapping in some places, but, as we top up that
manpower, that situation is improving.
540. What have you done to avoid the standards being breached?
What special measures have you introduced?
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) To avoid it being breached we simply do
not allow it to be breached. In other words, if people are on their minimum
time ashore we make sure they get that minimum time ashore.
541. Does that not lead to staff problems?
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) What it leads to, or has led to, is
gapping afloat. We try, obviously, and protect the front line, so the gaps
actually appear in the shore billets rather than the sea billets. At the
moment, the gapping in the fleet is certainly less than 5 per cent. Ashore
it is worse.
542. Does that have an effect on your operational capability in
any way?
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) No, it does not.
Mr Hancock
543. The gapping that occurs at sea, you have just said, is less
than 5 per cent, but that is not in all cases; there are ships afloat at the
moment with more than 5 per cent of gaps in crew.
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) They remain very small, isolated
pockets.
544. To make sure that ships are going to sea with less than 5 per
cent gapping, is training ashore being cut simply to fill spaces at sea, to
enable sailors to have their requirement ashore?
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) No, Mr Hancock, training is not being
affected. Where we are putting gaps is in shore billets. There is no cut in
training.
545. Training time has not been condensed or reorganised?
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) Training time is continually being
reviewed but it is not being specifically cut to fill gaps, no.
(Air Marshal Pledger) Mr Chairman, I think the Navy also have
a special recruitment initiative in this particular area. You asked about
remedial action and they have actually introduced a system whereby they will
recruit for only two years in order to try to overcome the conundrum you have
described and get that branch back into balance and reduce that gapping.
Mr Colvin
546. Can we move to the Army, then, because I think there is a
more serious problem there. The Army is meant to have 24-month tour intervals
but some units are now down to 6 only. Could you tell us if there are any
areas in the Army that do get 24-month intervals between tours?
(General Sir Alex Harley) At the moment, the answer would be no,
but - and you have heard the figures of those deployed coming down - we do
expect that as we go into this coming year there will be approaching 24
months, providing there are not any other contingencies, in some areas. For
example, the Royal Engineers would expect to go up to 24 months, whereas at
the height of last summer they were about 7 months. The Royal Signals would
go to about 15 months whereas they were 6 months. On the other hand, we will
find that the Royal Artillery will go 34 months on tour, whereas they were
about 18. So as the tempo of operations comes down, obviously, the tour
interval gets longer and we move towards our aspiration of 24-month intervals.
547. Have they been the arms in the Army that have been worst
affected, or have there been any others?
(General Sir Alex Harley) The worst affected have been the Royal
Signals and the Royal Engineers, as I have mentioned. However, that rather
hides the fact that there will be a number of trades within the Army, like
petroleum operators, chefs and one or two specialist areas, where, probably,
they will recover rather slower towards a 24-month tour interval.
548. Is the answer to the problem simply better recruitment and
retention, or is there anything else you can do - or are doing?
(General Sir Alex Harley) Certainly, part of the problem is to
start to man up towards our SDR figures, which specifically try to redress
some of the shortfalls in some of these specialist categories. For example,
the second line of communication.
549. Last year you monitored "nights out of bed" for Army
personnel, which showed that the average soldier is out of bed about 27 per
cent of the time. Do you regard that as acceptable?
(General Sir Alex Harley) No, we do not, but everybody is clear
that when operational commitments, such as the ones we had last summer, have
to be undertaken they get on with it and do it. The Army has, very
specifically, noticed that as soon as the job was done the numbers are coming
down rapidly. The Army would certainly subscribe to being useful and to being
involved, but it would not want to hang around in places longer than it would
need to.
550. So you are continuing to monitor "nights out of bed"?
(General Sir Alex Harley) We continue to try and monitor where the
pressures are. In Land Command, which, of course, has 73 per cent of the
Army's soldiers within it, they are conducting various means of trying to
identify separation and where it appears most and what are the particular
reasons for it. We will be setting up a mechanism, round about the end of the
summer, which will require every unit to forward returns up the chain of
command where they will be consolidated. The trouble is that whilst the unit
can determine exactly who is doing what, when and for what reason, we do not
yet have the information technology to gross it up in any really meaningful
way. Nevertheless, we will be starting a process which will lead towards a
much better definition of where people are being most separated and for what
reason.
551. You will be able to give us a rolling average percentage
figure?
(General Sir Alex Harley) That is precisely the intention - to
give some kind of average for which units, and some reason as to the reason
why.
(Mr Spellar) Also, if I could say, not just in terms of the more sort
of headline overseas operations but looking at disruption when our forces are
back here. For example, on guarding duties, which is one of the drivers
behind the Military Provost Guard Service -
Chairman
552. Yes, we have heard about that.
(Mr Spellar) - to alleviate the pressures on many of the forces who
accept the need for operations and their role in operations. In terms of,
particularly the married soldiers and their domestic responsibilities, they
find this in some ways more irksome than operations, and this alleviates some
of that pressure. This comes back to my introductory point about looking at
the disaggregated figure and how overstretch actually manifests itself in
different ways on different parts of the Army. Admiral Garnett also wishes
to identify some remedial measures.
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) Chairman, can I give you three examples
of how we have tried to reduce the overstretch on engineers and signals? In
the Falklands, in carrying out our reassessment of our military posture we
have assessed that we do not need so many engineers, so they have come home.
As we look at the Balkans we are looking at engineer specialists, and instead
of providing engineer specialists for Bosnia and for Kosovo we are going to
provide engineer specialists in certain trades to the Balkans region and they
can do their job in either Bosnia or Kosovo. In Bosnia and in Kosovo we are
looking at commercialising certain fixed communication facilities to reduce
the requirement for signallers to deploy to the Balkans.
Mr Colvin
553. Also, of course, calling in reservists.
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) Yes.
Laura Moffatt
554. I am going to move on to the RAF and try and make some
comparisons through the other services, if I may. There is a particular
standard that has been chosen, which is the 90-day and the 140-day year, to
really demonstrate how people are being asked to stay away from home and, of
course, the 280-day period for two years. How were these thresholds chosen?
Who said these were a measurement of people being stretched?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) If I may, Mr Chairman. Good
morning. I had the appointment of the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff some
four to five years ago, and at that time the Air Force was concerned that we
could not track individuals away from home, because whilst we deployed formed
units and squadrons and the like, we often augment them in times of crisis.
Therefore, we drew up these figures based on discussion between Colonels-in-
Chief at the time as a realistic starting point to allow us to track the
extent of the problem, where the shoe was pinching and to see what we needed
to do about it. They are not absolute figures and, indeed, we may refine them
based on experience.
555. That is interesting because that goes on to my second point,
in which I wanted to know which end of the telescope you were looking at. Is
it a standard that you just hope to adhere to or is there no way in which they
are allowed to be breached?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) No, the fact of the matter is that
they will be breached if there is operational need to do so. In some cases,
with some individuals, they will spend in excess of 140 nights away from home.
I have to say that some of those people relish the opportunity to do so - the
younger ones without family commitments love it. The problem, though, is that
not everyone does enjoy it, and therefore we have to recognise where the
pressures are and do something about it. We have work in hand right now to
look at the balance of investment in manpower by trade and skill set that we
need to cope with the expeditionary warfare that is the feature of today's
war.
556. Thank you for that. You say that there will be some
breaching, and I know that on both of the figures there has been a worsening
of the percentage. You will correct me, with pleasure, but that is our
information. Is that not true?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) I do not know the specific figures
to which you are referring but what I would say is that we have taken a range
of measures over the last year to look at how we even out the pressure to take
people who do not normally serve on front-line squadrons, for instance, from
the agencies, to retrain them and to use them to augment front-line squadrons
to give people a respite who would otherwise cut through the threshold.
However, there are some areas - chefs, drivers and specialist technicians -
where indeed things are difficult, and we are doing something about it right
now.
557. That being so, and you have mentioned some ways in which you
are trying to address it, what else - apart from the obvious of cutting out
operational commitments - can you do?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) You can share the load more evenly
across all the people in the Royal Air Force. You can, secondly, look at
people who, hitherto, have been exempted - for instance, people about to
retire, and you can look at medical employment standards to see whether we can
show more flexibility over that - really, to try and include the maximum
number of people with the requisite skill sets, if need be by retraining them
and refreshing them, to take the load. For instance, if the job specifically
requires a sergeant could we send a corporal? Could we send a flight
sergeant? If that will allow us to be pro-active in managing the problem,
that is what we are planning to do.
558. I think that is the three services reasonably covered. May
I now move on to ask which of the three services do you believe to be most
under pressure, in terms of nights away from home?
(Mr Spellar) I think, up-to-date, the Army has been considerably under
pressure, not least because we inherited a substantial level of undermanning
anyway in the Army, also, because of the nature of the commitments during the
course of this year and also because of particular specialities that we
identified which have impacted on the Army. With the Signals that is not just
due to operational requirements, it is also influenced by the explosion in the
communications industry in the country, which is providing some extremely
attractive alternative employment and some quite aggressive recruiting from
companies that are growing very fast.
559. I think you, quite rightly, gentlemen, raised the issue that
sometimes for younger people it is great, it is why they joined the armed
forces, or the RAF or the Navy - to get out there and do things. However,
when you have a wife and small children - and we have seen that wherever we
have been - it is a different tale. They enjoy doing their job but there is
a great sense of guilt about the family left behind, and that can be the
driving force to men changing their minds about staying or going.
(Mr Spellar) It can be, but there are things we can do, not to change
whether they are away but, for example, to greatly improve communications for
the serviceman or woman with their family back home. For example, the
increase to 20 minutes a week, quadrupling the time for actually `phoning
back. As we were describing earlier, we can improve the communications system
for those sorts of purposes so that they have access to telephones.
560. Yes. We feel strongly about that, too, and I know we have a
line of questioning on those issues, because they are extremely important.
There was an initiative, called the Separated Services Initiative, that was
introduced to measure properly the way in which people are being used in the
armed forces and the effect on them. That really needs to be properly funded,
but I do not believe a decision has been taken yet on when that is going to
happen. Can you tell us a bit about it?
(Air Marshal Pledger) In terms of measuring time that people
are separated, currently one of the services does have such a mechanism. You
have already heard described by the Adjutant General the activity that is
going on currently to trial a similar mechanism in the Army. I think the
point I would make is that, therefore, there are initiatives under way and
what we have to do is represent that in a way then that is usable management
information. We already, to an extent, have different levels of information
because there are remedial actions in terms of paying people for exceeding
some of the harmony rules that you have heard described. However, I think the
bottom line is that in setting up that system we must recognise the different
modus operandi of the three services and measure something that impacts on
their operational capability rather than just defining a system that will give
us a series of numbers. So those are being taken forward with that
overarching objective.
561. Of course, naturally, but it was the measure that you chose
yourselves to use to be able to measure armed forces. Therefore, it needs to
be properly funded to give you the information you want. Can you tell us
anything about that? Is it going to be a scheme that is going to be
worthwhile, not only for you but, I hope, for us?
(General Sir Alex Harley) Certainly we are doing work now to be
able to bring all this together on a tri-service basis so there can be a tri-
service way of measuring separated service. However, as I tried to explain
with the work the Land Command are doing, it is not an easy matter. You are
quite right, there will need to be IT funding for this thing, but firstly we
have got to work out mechanisms on a tri-service basis for how to do this.
Once we have done that then, obviously, we will start to look at the IT and
we may be able to use some of the IT that we already have. I wonder if I
could come back to the Army's manning where the Minister felt we were under
most pressure. We do not watch this situation just happening, with people
being busier and busier and just accepting it. If you look at the Army's
overall manning, we are making a tremendous effort at the moment to try and
increase the numbers by various schemes: to make better use of the Ghurkas -
we have kept the Ghurkas and reinforcement companies for longer and we are
going to have an additional engineers and signals squadron in the Ghurkas; we
have specifically aimed at keeping senior NCOs on in the Army longer, beyond
those that volunteer to stay on longer, and we have made substantial use of
reservists (ten per cent of those who are serving in Bosnia are reservists)
and, also, full-time reserved service from the Territorial Army. If you
compare the overall undermanning situation in the Army compared with our
establishment, without all those schemes it is minus 5.6 per cent. If you add
in all those schemes it is minus 4.1 per cent, including raising the
establishment level to account for those people. So that is one of the things
that we do. We have introduced post-operational tour leave, which is one
month, which everybody gets, absolutely dedicated within one month of leaving
an operational tour. That has gone down hugely well across the Army, and I
think all three services. We have done quite a lot for families, tying them
up with internets, where they are connected up, with their husbands who are
away, and we have included better arrangements for concessionary travel so
they can travel backwards and forwards from Germany. Recently we have decided
that we will move to a length-of-service based commission for officers, which
starts in April, because we realise, with rather older officers, that they do
not spend as much time as we would like with their soldiers in junior units;
there has been quite a lot of difficulty with the operational pressures where
units have had to backfill each other, they have had to change their locations
quite a bit and so there is a disruptive chain of command all the time. That
has been compounded by the fact that we have continued a system, which is
that, by and large, although most officers now have a university degree we
have expected them to put forward that they are qualifying from Sandhurst at
19/20 whereas, in fact, 85 per cent of them are qualifying at 24/25 now.
There is a whole raft of these sorts of processes where we try and alleviate
things. If I can just have on more minute, in Land Command it is the time
between operations which is most painful to soldiers, so that when they come
back from operations they are carrying out all the duties of those people who
are away. Land Command looks very sensitively at this situation, such that
the only training that takes place is that specifically tied to operational
training. Therefore, all the other sorts of tasks that people get caught up
with - trials of one kind or another, guard duties here and there, and other
exercises supporting other formations, and so on - get reduced right down.
We also try and introduce a Monday to Friday regime so that people do not have
to turn up on a Sunday night to go training on Monday. So there is a whole
wealth of these schemes, and as a result of some of this retention has notched
up a little since last summer.
Laura Moffatt: A little.
Chairman
562. You are obviously trying very hard. You can recruit as many
soldiers as you want in Nepal. Does it not look even more stupid the way in
which the Ministry of Defence has capped the number of Ghurkas? Has there
been any attempt to recruit more Ghurkas or to retain them longer?
(General Sir Alex Harley) We have looked at that. We do expect to
achieve our full manning targets by 2005, as is laid down in the Strategic
Defence Review.
Mr Blunt
563. It is 2004 in the Defence Review.
(General Sir Alex Harley) 2005.
Mr Brazier: It has moved a year.
Chairman
564. We can check on that before we leave.
(General Sir Alex Harley) We do expect to have full manning by the
targets we have been set. Therefore, apart from extending the length of
service of Ghurkas we have not chosen to recruit lots more because we could
then be stuck with a problem of having - because they have a 15-year length
of service - rather more Ghurkas than we require. So that is not part of the
strategy, but we are using many of those gambits that I talked about to try
and fill the gaps that we have.
565. 2004/05 is a long time to have to wait for a fully manned
Army. Why not recruit Ghurkas for 5 years instead of 15?
(General Sir Alex Harley) The process of manning is such that you
do not suddenly say, on 1 April, "You are now expected to be manned to a
completely new figure" because you have a rolling programme of getting
towards, which is all about commitments and new tasks which the manpower is
supposed to fund. So every year the liability of manpower to do with the jobs
goes up, and it is stepped and funded on that basis.
Mr Hancock
566. How easy is it for a senior NCO in the Army who wants to stay
in to stay in?
(General Sir Alex Harley) How easy?
567. Yes. Is it the same for all trades?
(General Sir Alex Harley) No, it is not. It depends on what his
trade is, which part of the Army he is working in and how well he is doing.
Of course, we can make it quite flexible that people can stay on for one, two
or three years and we are trying to make it as flexible as we can. I may not
quite have the figures right, but in the last year we have gone up from
something like 180 or so of those people to well into the 400s.
568. Do many of them seek to retrain at the end of their career
because they are facing not the option of staying in, but they might if they
were able to diversify their talents into another area? What opportunities
are you giving to them?
(General Sir Alex Harley) Certainly from my perspective I try and
push the idea that if you have not quite got the right person to fill a gapped
position then why not retrain some young person sitting on a course - some
young sergeant - and make sure that he is qualified to do that job. We are
trying to do this right the way across the Army. Sometimes it is not going
as quickly as I would like because people are worried about establishments,
but you must also remember that for every sergeant warrant officer you keep
in the Army you are stopping the rank structure for those that are coming up
through. So it has to be a very careful balance. Nevertheless, it is a very
successful thing and the Army is catching on to using it rather more.
569. Can I ask that you give us some figures in writing for that -
and, maybe, for the RAF and the Navy as well - because I think it is an
interesting situation.
(General Sir Alex Harley) We can certainly do that.
570. We have these very well trained, and very expensively
trained, men who are now approaching 40, who know they are coming to the end
of their career but they are being denied the opportunity for retraining. You
will spend quite a lot of money allowing them to train for a civilian job
during the last year or so of their service, but you will not allow them to
train to be reused within the armed forces - which, to me, seems ludicrous.
(General Sir Alex Harley) As I say, we are trying to use this
rather more imaginatively than we have done in the past. It has come around
on a "needs must" basis, but I think it is very good and it is very popular.
(Mr Spellar) I have to say, Michael, that I have observed in the two-
and-a-half years of being a Minister a much greater flexibility in the
services in looking at a number of these issues, including the one you are
raising. I found this system to be much more rigid in 1997 than I do now.
571. I was thinking of your predecessor in Italy, talking to RAF
staff, who were very depressed about what had been offered to them. The RAF
had people problems but they were not encouraging people to seek to retrain.
I do not think, General, there is a downward flow of your confidence that that
is being offered to people.
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Can I just, perhaps, pick up on the
Royal Air Force, to give you two examples of the flexibility we have
introduced? Hitherto, if an airman had not been promoted to sergeant he would
not be offered an extended career. Now we have cut back on recruiting - for
100 people this year and 200 over the next three years - so that an SAC or JT
will be offered a long career opportunity to prove himself, perhaps get
promoted and get to a pensionable engagement. At the macro-level - because
we are short of pilots - we are taking in navigators who demonstrated pilot
aptitude potential as they went through training but there was no scope for
them to fill a pilot's job and we are cross-training them to fill pilots jobs
and doing that very successfully.
Chairman
572. When military personnel leave they are interviewed and give
their reasons. What analysis has there been, Minister, of the reasons given
for people clearing off early?
(Mr Spellar) Many of the reasons have been identified here, and family
pressures are undoubtedly significant - and the change in people's lifestyle.
One of the results of evolutionary changes is a greater percentage of spouses
who work, and not just work but have careers. At a certain stage this puts
particular pressure on - not least, at a time when we have a strong economy
and considerable employment opportunities.
573. Perhaps we can come on to that later. I just wanted to bring
it in to this.
(Mr Spellar) I do not know if Air Marshal Pledger wants to identify
some of the other areas that have been raised.
(Air Marshal Pledger) Presumably, Mr Chairman, you are aware
that we do run continuous attitude surveys as well, to see what the current
perspectives are. There is a whole range of issues, and almost certainly, at
the moment, op tempo would head that list, I believe.
Mr Blunt
574. I am sorry, what would head that?
(Air Marshal Pledger) Op tempo - operational tempo. Perhaps
another one, of course, is today's society. There is an expectation, shall
we say, that people will have a portfolio of employment opportunities rather
than the through-life expectations of the past. So we are not dealing with
one particular issue, and, again, we have a variegated approach to it.
Chairman: We will come back to that.
Mr Colvin
575. Let us pick up on one factor which Laura Moffatt raised,
which is separated service. I cannot understand why in the White Paper there
is no mention at all of the increased enhancement of allowances for separated
service. There is a good story to tell, yet in the part on Policy for People
you do not mention it, and in answer to the questions this morning about
separated service there is no mention of the enhanced allowances which can
give an additional œ1,000. Why is that? Was it, perhaps, an after-thought
on the part of the new Secretary of State, because we only got the
announcement on 20 December, which is after we expected the original White
Paper to be published?
(Mr Spellar) Not an after-thought but a considered position. Also,
there is œ2,000 for even more intensive separated service.
576. Why do you not mention it in the White Paper?
(Mr Spellar) I think that is a matter of timing, actually, in terms of
that, but it is part of a wide ranging portfolio of responses that we have
made and, also, the guaranteed 28 days leave on return from operations. All
of these are designed, along with many of these minor measures, to relieve
some of the irritations as well as the major impacts, in order to try and
alleviate those problems. That will not work for every individual, because
for some individuals it is a change - or an evolution - in their personal
circumstances which is the main driver. However, what we are seeing is a net
inflow into the Army over the last few months. We are not building a huge
edifice on that because we want to see more robust figures over a longer
period of time, but we believe that is an indication, in statistical terms,
of the changes having some impact, and that is backed up, I have to say, by
anecdotal evidence in going round our various establishments, and the response
to a number of these measures from our service personnel.
577. Can you give us a figure for the additional costs of these
higher separated service allowances over a year? What is the estimate of the
additional cost?
(Mr Spellar) About œ12-15 million.
Mr Hancock
578. When do you start paying that.
(Mr Spellar) It is backdated from 1 December.
579. This year?
(General Sir Alex Harley) Last year. So anybody who has had 240
days' - whatever it was - separated service in the two years from 1 December
last gets œ1,000.
Mr Blunt
580. And the annual cost will be œ15 million?
(Mr Spellar) Between 12 and 15 million because we are looking at things
happening.
(General Sir Alex Harley) You must realise that this allowance is
dependent upon operational tempo. If the operational tempo goes down, of
course, the allowance goes down. If it goes up then those who are the hardest
worked get paid for it.
Mr Colvin: To avoid confusion, it is since December 1997.
Chairman: The most important issue, as far as we are concerned, if we
reflect the views of soldiers, sailors and airmen who come into contact with
us, will now be dealt with by Mr Hepburn. Telephones.
Mr Hepburn
581. Thank you, Chairman. The Minister did make reference to the
telephone allowance, and, indeed, it has certainly proved popular amongst
servicemen, but does it not seem odd that whilst there is a telephone
allowance of 20 minutes a week available for servicemen in Bosnia, and Gulf
and now Kosovo, in the Falklands - where there might be tours of duty of four
months - a soldier is expected to pay œ1 a minute to keep in contact with his
family?
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) It is an anomaly, and we are looking at
it. There is no easy answer because the Falklands could be described by some
as a garrison run on operational lines. Straightaway it falls across that
dividing line between all the allowances and conditions of service that are
applied to garrison duty overseas - such as Cyprus - and allowances and
conditions of service that apply operationally, such as in the Balkans. It
is not easy and I know it is a bone of contention. Whenever I go down there
I am told about it and we are working with the Ministry of Defence to try and
solve the problem within the whole operational welfare initiative that is
being run by the Ministry.
582. Can I ask the Minister if he is sympathetic to this
particular issue and would he have a view - without giving any commitment -
to rectify this anomaly?
(Mr Spellar) It is a problem. It is a difficulty, as you rightly
identify, and it is a clear bone of contention, but it is not one that is so
easily resolvable in the way that, when we were looking at some of our
operations, we were able to say "Look, here is a readily identifiable problem
and here is a possible range of solutions to deal with it", because you do
then create, as always in these situations, some other anomalies and
difficulties as well. We are alert to it, we are sympathetic to it and we are
looking at it, but this is one that is not so easy to resolve as speedily as,
for example, we did with the operation in Kosovo. That was partly, as I said,
about the time allocated but it was also about the availability of telephone
equipment. It was not a particularly good situation at the beginning. It has
improved but we also have to learn lessons from that in order to have packages
available and ready to deploy for future deployable operations. As we become
a more expeditionary force we have to get these packages prepared and ready
beforehand rather than putting them together subsequently. There will
inevitably be some glitches on the way in that, but we have to have a much
better plan for that.
(Air Marshal Pledger) In addition, of course, it is very
difficult to address just one component of allowances, you have to look at
this in the round. You have heard described the Falklands, and, particularly,
Cyprus, as more of a garrison environment, which is a completely different one
from the kind of conditions being experienced in Kosovo and Bosnia. Some
allowances paid in those garrison locations actually have a proportion in them
for telephones. So we have to take a coherent approach to this, rather than
just one element of that package.
583. With respect, I think Cyprus is a little bit different from
the Falklands. For me to travel from Newcastle to London would probably take
the same time to get to Cyprus, which is different from a 24-hour journey to
a remote location like the Falklands in the South Atlantic. Is there any
time-scale on this particular review that you are talking about? Or is it
something on which you cannot give a particular date?
(Mr Spellar) No, it is one, as I say, that we are reviewing because we
are aware of the difficulty, we are aware it is a cause and source of
grievance, but equally, I stress, it is not one that is immediately and
readily resolvable.
584. It is probably me as a layman, but you can see the difference
between the Falklands and Cyprus?
(Air Marshal Pledger) Having been to both locations, I can,
yes, see the difference.
Chairman
585. In the case of Kosovo, when we were there in November, the
military personnel had vast numbers of `phone cards and, as you said, not
enough telephones to put them in, which caused frustration. Surely, it is not
beyond the competence of the Ministry of Defence to instal more telephones?
Why is the problem still with us? Surely it could be fairly easily resolved
with some political will.
(Mr Spellar) Not entirely. There were complications there with the
telephone system and, also, as you know, there were some difficulties with the
contractors. That is an area where, as I recall, we had to review the
contract and the subcontractors, in particular, and that is exactly why I
stress to you that we need to have a more satisfactory welfare package that
actually moves fairly closely behind our forces when they are in an
expeditionary role. That does not just apply, by the way, to telephones. A
further area is in terms of television reception, both on our ships and when
we move into theatre. Again, we are undertaking a number of measures with
regard to that. You are right to identify deficiencies. We have identified
those deficiencies and that is precisely why we are taking action on it.
586. It is rather embarrassing finding out that lots of our people
in Pristina were invited - and accepted the invitation - to go and watch
television with Hungarians nearby because of the limited channel availability.
Hungary is not the most marshalled of nations, it has a defence budget lower
than ours and it has not been engaged in expeditionary warfare for some
considerable time, so should we not learn some more lessons about providing
facilities for people put into awful places for fairly protracted periods of
time?
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) Chairman, we did learn the lessons. We
did not do well in the Balkans but because of our experiences in Kosovo when
we deployed the force to East Timor all the lessons that had been learned were
implemented and the people were very satisfied with the operational welfare
arrangements put in place. I stood beside a man on an island off Dili making
a call home using a `phone brought out to theatre. That was achieved because
of the lessons that we had learned.
587. One of the criticisms in the Falklands related not so much to
attitude problems towards the MoD but Cable & Wireless. Although their prices
had come down, when you watch television and see how easy it is to call
Australia (assuming you want to) you then find you have to pay œ1 a minute to
telephone London, which is outrageous. Have you had any luck in leaning on
Cable & Wireless to bring their charges down even further to what might be
seen as an acceptable level to those who telephone home? They might even
spend more time on the telephone if it is cheaper than œ1 a minute.
(General Sir Alex Harley) Your point about learning lessons is a
well-made point, and we have, through the Kosovo experience, decided that our
operational welfare support needs to be underpinned by a proper doctrinal
basis. Up to now it has been a rather ad hoc, hand-to-mouth approach, part
publicly funded, part privately funded, and not sequential in the way it is
delivered. Neither is it, really, on the shelf to be deployed. Or course,
the NAAFI and their expeditionary forces element play a huge part in this.
We have not covered ourselves with glory at all in making sure that this
happens properly. So we accept - and I am sure you will go to the Minister
in due course - that us, the PPOs here, will be producing a doctrine, which
is almost done now, which sets it all out in a proper context, a proper matrix
and on a proper doctrinal basis which says "for this phase of an operation
this will happen; for this phase this will happen" and so on and so forth, and
contracts will be in being. That will be part - very much part - of being
better prepared for expeditionary operations in future. In fact, it has
already started to deliver itself with the Ghurkas in East Timor, where I
think that all those who were deployed there thought that the support was
quite terrific.
(Mr Spellar) We have moved on in a whole number of areas there. For
example, on Internet access, which is now becoming very substantial. We are
actually providing Internet access back here - a lot of that has been done
through local welfare budgets at bases, through the hives, and also, actually,
in theatre - so that families are able to communicate. Also, as we know,
there has been an exponential increase at all levels in society of access to
the Internet over the last year or so. We are responding, because that, in
many cases, becomes an even easier way of communicating and backing up - not
replacing - these other facilities. We have developed the "electronic bluey"
which has been announced by the Secretary of State. All of these are helping
considerably to improve that communication from the operation through to home.
Again, with television on ships, we are now installing facilities for better
television reception when our ships are being refitted. That is, again, a
major improvement to the qualify of life.
Mr Hancock: Surely the one thing that you missed in your answers here,
particularly when you drew comparisons between Cyprus and the Falklands, is
that if I were a soldier or airman going to Cyprus and I was married I could
take my family with me, but you cannot take your family to the Falklands.
Surely the difference is this attitude that the Ministry of Defence has to
garrisons. There is a distinct difference, is there not? The Falklands
should be treated as a separate issue. I cannot understand why that cannot
be dealt with fairly quickly, and give them even a partial allowance of 10
minutes per man on the Falklands, because of the special circumstances, as
opposed to 20. I would submit 20 myself because I know, from personal
experience, of constituents who have had significant family problems because
of the lack of communication. It is very difficult to get a `phone call, even
on compassionate grounds, quickly if you are in the Falklands. I know because
my own brother-in-law was put in that position of trying to get messages home
quickly and it caused a problem. I do not believe that it is an
insurmountable one that could not be taken fairly quickly. If there is the
will to bring this anomaly out of existence by giving them it, for goodness
sake get on and do it. Mr Hood: Before you respond, I should say that I
feel as strongly as the other Members. I do not believe it is so when there
are compassionate problems and people in the Falklands cannot get access to
a telephone. Recently we were there and there was access to telephones on
compassionate grounds, although generally it is a problem. On the argument
about 10 minutes, when we were there the brigadier obviously used his own
budget to give a reward or a benefit to his soldiers by giving them an extra
10 minutes. Therefore, instead of getting 20 minutes, they had an extra 10
minutes from the MOD. That was funded from his budget. If the question is
funding I think you should say that it is funding. Looking at the body
language - I am not being disrespectful - you look as uncomfortable as you
should. I think that you recognise that it is wrong. I hope that in
recognising that - including the buzz phrases such as "looking at", "we
appreciate it" and "we are reviewing it" - that you do something about it.
That is what I want to ask the Minister.
Chairman: That is a point of view that we all share.
Mr Cohen
588. On the point of e-mails, one thing that is coming on stream
in Europe - we saw that the commanding officer in Kosovo has it - is the
facility to have e-mails on mobiles. That would provide a phenomenal
communication system between troops and their loved ones back home. Will the
Ministry of Defence consider the possibility of the supply of mobiles which
perhaps had just that e-mail facility?
(Mr Spellar) You have to look at the balance of costs as between one
system and another and the benefit provided. Would it be better for everyone
to have a longer period for a call - indeed, we have given a longer period -
or would they prefer the shorter period with mobile access? In some cases we
have to use mobiles because of the lack of fixed communications. The balance
of that has to be looked at and particularly when the technology and the
pricing structures change dramatically as we have seen in domestic
circumstances over the past couple of years. I am indicating that we are
aware of those changes and we are responding rapidly to them. When talking
about communications we should not stay fixed to the traditional manner of
communicating, but we should look at the ways in which people are
communicating, particularly across time zones and across continents. In many
cases people both in personal and business life find it easier to use e-mail
or to use that as a backup to the telephone. We all find that to be so,
particularly if we are dealing with people in different time zones.
Chairman
589. When you make improvements perhaps you would let us know
because we are obviously most interested.
(Mr Spellar) And give you some credit.
Mr Colvin
590. Talking about taking credit, there is another area where you
have not taken credit for something that you have done. An important factor
in improving morale and therefore retention is leave after operational tours.
(Mr Spellar) I have mentioned that.
591. I know you have, but it is not mentioned in the White Paper.
It says that you are introducing post-operational leave, but it says nothing
about the details. If you have been on an operational tour for six months you
get an additional 20 days leave over and above the normal leave allowance.
That is good news. Why on earth was more not said about it in the White
Paper? We have criticised the White Paper for being a thin document, so where
there is good news I think you should tell us. Is it yet in operation?
(Mr Spellar) Yes. We announced it. We announced it in the best way
of keeping a secret in this country. The Secretary of State announced it on
the Floor of the House of Commons.
592. Has it begun?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Yes, it has.
(General Sir Alex Harley) People returning from Kosovo have had
it.
593. So those people returning from operational tours will get the
extra 20 days?
(Mr Spellar) They are already getting that.
Chairman: Another issue of irritation is that most of our group slept
in tents in sub-zero temperatures. I was privileged to visit the Hungarian
facilities in Pristina that would make Billy Butlin shake with envy if he were
still alive. The facilities were scintillating, whereas the camp that we
visited looked a bit like the Klondike on a bad day. Mr Cann is similarly
exercised by the problem so will inflict his venom on you.
Mr Cann
594. Not venom, but vague regret. We discussed the matter with a
number of people there. The programme is very big - over œ30 million. A lot
of it involves great concrete pads and semi-permanent structures, which will
be of no use to us when we move elsewhere and some are still not up yet,
although we are well into the Kosovan winter. The people were very envious
of some of the Scandinavian armies that appeared to arrive with a fairly
integrated tented city. They take it with them when they go somewhere and
then take it with them when they go elsewhere. First, are we sure that we
have the timetabling right and, secondly, is the concept right?
(Mr Spellar) Let us look at two areas: one is the tented accommodation
and the other is the temporary field accommodation. It would be fairly well
agreed that the tented accommodation is the best tented accommodation that our
forces have had. I believe that that is the view that they have conveyed to
Members of the Committee. Some of the press reports have read remarkably as
though it was "Carry on Camping" with very limited accommodation. It is
significantly better than that, although I accept that it is not universal
across Kosovo. Some are living in winterised accommodation. The contract for
the temporary field accommodation was awarded fairly quickly when we knew the
kind of timescale in which we were likely to go into Kosovo. Certainly there
was a change in the environment, by which I mean that we were looking at a
more benign environment from the point of view of our forces having an
unopposed entry into Kosovo. That changed some of the requirement. That
meant a little delay but it was only a small part of the delay. There were
some other discussions about changes at site level that I believe went on
again slightly too long, but it was not a significant factor. We have had
significant problems with the contractor in the amount of support and
dedication of resources. That has led to delays well beyond those that are
reasonable and for which we are retaining a considerable percentage of the
contract price until the contract is satisfactorily completed. Therefore, we
need to look at the matter of how we procure such accommodation in the future
and who we procure it from as well. However, I have asked the CGO to amplify
some of the details on the current state of play. We should move into the
first of the sites this week, with a programme of a further six in February
and a further five in March.
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) The first two sites, both hilltop sites,
should be occupied today. One probably will be, but one will not because on
inspection there were defects that we believe the contractor should put right,
mainly related to health and safety. We are not prepared to take on a camp
that is not built to the correct health and safety standards. That shows poor
contract and programme management. The next six sites will be occupied during
February and the final five sites before the end of March. Going back to the
policy, it is absolutely right that we now have interim tented camps for
expeditionary operations and exercises. That will be withdrawn from theatre
as people move in to temporary field accommodation, which is designed to last
for three years, which is the expected length of time in Kosovo. The policy
is to have, as part of our expeditionary campaign infrastructure, the best
tents that we can get, and that we have today, and when we move in to a part
of the world where we shall stay for a few years, we shall build temporary
field accommodation.
Chairman
595. Having shared a tent with Mr Hood, I think sound-proofing
would be quite helpful. There should also be toilets that do not require you
to have a diploma in athletics or cross-country running or toilets that are
not put to shame by the toilet arrangements of the Ottoman empire circa 1750.
Even with our much vaunted improved tented accommodation I would not want to
give the impression to any listener or viewer that our troops are living in
splendid accommodation. It may be better than it was, but to be fair those
whom we met did not complain very much. We were the ones who complained. The
MOD was quick off the mark in having the concept of temporary field
accommodation - unusually swift off the mark. As you know only too well,
matters were not executed as successfully as they should have been. With that
failure we should not minimise the difficulties of building accommodation for
5,000 people without much skill or local labour over such a long distance and
very difficult roads. Has there been any analysis that may be helpful in
terms of our logistical arrangements or supply organisations? Have the
contractors done anything that we may find useful in supplying and
transmitting accommodation, or anything, over such long and quite inhospitable
climates and physical environments?
(Mr Spellar) Our first priority is to get this contract sorted out
before we review the lessons learned for future operations. We take the point
that we need to improve the performance of contractors. We also need to look
at the supply chains. At the moment, of course, we have a considerable number
of forces going in there. There have also been a number of natural disasters
occurring elsewhere throughout the world leading to considerable pressure on
the provision of those facilities internationally. The other area to which
you alluded - not just looking at the accommodation blocks themselves - is how
we get in the necessary infrastructure in order to service those areas. Some
of the problems that we have experienced have been as much, if not more, due
to the sort of environmental issues, by which I mean the infrastructure issues
rather than just the provision of the blocks. That comes down to our project
management, which, as we have said, we believe has not been as good as it
should have been and therefore to the availability of appropriate
subcontractors and teams dealing with that. There are a number of lessons to
be learnt. At the moment I am indicating that we are starting to see some
progress. We can see how the contract is running. I still wish to emphasise
that the tented accommodation is a considerable improvement on what our people
have had before. As you indicated, they actually understand and appreciate
that.
Mr Cohen
596. When I saw the camp, which is an improvement, I described it
as "war by boxes". I think there is an Italian company called "Coricor" that
has provided them.
(Mr Spellar) Corimec.
597. Yes. We saw a number in Kosovo that were damaged. They had
to be lifted up and put in place by crane. It seemed to us that the
specification had not been checked properly. Do you think improvements could
be made to those arrangements so that we get what we order?
(Mr Spellar) Certainly we will do, although we have to accept that
building sites are rough and unpredictable places, particularly when you are
far away from appropriate facilities and there is no hard-standing. That is
why I say that it is the infrastructure and the installation issues that are
often more significant in causing difficulties than production. We have
looked again at the expeditionary package that we developed which means that
we are able to draw on a range of subcontractors in whom we can place some
reliance and some security and, therefore, are able to mobilise them at
shorter notice. That ties in with the other issues that I have described
previously.
Chairman
598. We now come to a section of questions on undermanning.
Mr Hancock
599. I take you, Minister, and your service colleagues back to the
beginning when we talked about the overstretch, undermanning, gapping, and so
on. Today, you obviously came here prepared for this question. Can each of
the services give us the current level of deficit in the Armed Forces?
(Mr Spellar) When talking about undermanning are you talking about
gross numbers, or are you talking about undermanning also within particular
sections?
600. No. Let us start with the broad figures.
(Mr Spellar) I say that it is important because in some senses if we
talk about full manning as being every arm and every speciality being fully
manned, then that is like a constantly receding target. You will never
actually achieve that. It depends where you want to start. Perhaps we can
start with the Navy.
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) On the basis of trained strength to
requirement - rather than overall numbers - which I think is an important
side, the answer is that the Navy manning is just over 95 per cent.
(General Sir Alex Harley) If we do not count Gurkhas, reservists
and the Royal Irish, and if we are talking about trained adult United Kingdom
personnel, against an establishment in the Army of 102,389 we have 96,662,
which is minus 5,727 or minus 5.6 per cent. That is the manning figures as
of 1 December. I can go on about the whole Army strength and the Gurkhas and
the Royal Irish and so on if you want.
601. No, at this stage, that is sufficient.
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) In the case of the Royal Air Force,
we are about 580 people short which is 99 per cent manned against our
requirement. That is a significant improvement on a year ago. Within that
there are some key areas of shortfall such as pilots.
Mr Blunt: We shall want to come back to that.
Mr Hancock
602. What are the key areas that you have identified for the
continuous haemorrhage of trained personnel leaving the three services? What
are the main factors that you have identified? When will the initiatives that
you have put in place to combat that be available to the personnel in the
three services?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) We have our own continuous general
attitude survey. The trends that have been apparent for some time are time
away from home, separated service and operational tempo to use the phrase used
earlier. In the case of the Royal Air Force, we have taken a number of
measures. I talked about some of them earlier when dealing with the people
in the Kosovo campaign. Now, we have our forces back home, although some are
clearly on operations and getting ready to go on operations. On the way in
which we manage our people and the way in which we look after them and their
families, I am optimistic that we have turned the corner in terms of retention
although we still have some way to go.
(General Sir Alex Harley) We have talked about overstretch, but
undermanning is a contributory factor to overstretch. Undermanning and
overstretch are our most important priorities. The overstretch is the most
worrying to soldiers and families because those who are married do not get
enough time with their families and those who are single do not get enough
time to live a normal life and indulge in their own pursuits such as sports
or seeing girlfriends or boyfriends or whatever. However, there is another
difficulty in that they are not always able to pursue their own educational
or career qualifications, so they get behind. Of course, such qualifications
are required for their career structures and their trade training and so on.
I would say that the overstretch is an unhappy thing for families. Families
say that they do not see their husbands and so on which contributes to
encouraging people to leave. The next most important area is the standard of
accommodation. For people in the forces those three matters - overstretch and
undermanning, the effect on people's careers and accommodation - are at the
top of the list in the continuous attitude survey and those who leave are
always debriefed.
(Commodore Wykeham-Martin) It is fair to say that the problem of
the deficit of manpower that we have had in the Navy goes back to about 1993-
95 when we capped recruiting. Whatever one does now, there will always be
that hole in the numbers that will flow through the system. Currently,
recruiting is buoyant. Of course, we have an endemic shortfall because of
that capped recruiting and it is particularly prevalent in the case of
engineers, engineer officers and junior officers. At the moment I would
reinforce what the other two services have said that we now are recruiting the
right people and given the right conditions of service we shall be able to
retain them and get into manpower balance. For us the target is 2002.
603. I am amazed by your answers. Not one of you has mentioned an
issue that is raised time and time again when I meet service personnel - I am
sure it is the same for others, as I know it has been when I have been with
defence ministers in the past - the lack of promotional opportunities whether
for enlisted personnel or a log-jamming for officers and the lack of financial
incentives to remain. None of you has offered a timescale for the initiative
of which the Minister has spoken and Parliament has been informed of to tell
us when they will be in operation. I am depressed. I have a constituent, a
young RAF officer, who was university-educated by the RAF and trained to fly
and who has had a very interesting career, but she has decided to leave. That
decision will cost her œ10,000 to pay back the educational facility, but you
have done very little to encourage her to stay in a trade which I was told was
vital and in which there is a shortage of well-qualified ground engineers.
I am amazed at what all three of you have said. None of you has mentioned
that point. I cannot believe that the test that you carry out or the
questions that you ask your servicemen and women give you the right answers.
You cannot be asking the questions because they tell us totally different
things.
(Mr Spellar) One point is that you asked why people were leaving.
I presumed you were moving on to "remediation" and what was being done in
response. Secondly, on issues such as promotion, ironically if there is a
greater level of retention for some people that can have an impact on their
promotion prospects as gaps do not open up further up. That is slightly more
difficult and we shall have to look at other opportunities for people, in
particular how we reward skills within the services.
604. This Committee stood in a military hospital in Frimley and
young corporals who had probably done eight years' service in the medical
services told us that there was no chance of promotion. They were qualified
to be promoted but they have no chance of getting any more money and they
might as well take a civilian job in the same hospital for substantially more
money. They were going nowhere. There is no answer yet from anyone about how
we can retain pilots and give them a better package and how in critical areas
we can retain nursing and medical services where there are deficiencies. Some
deficiencies are in excess of 20 per cent of what is needed. That cannot be
right for the Armed Forces of this country.
(Mr Spellar) Let us start with pilots, as that is a good example and
one that is driven by the current state of the civil airline industry which
firstly, is experiencing rising traffic and, secondly, quite a number of those
pilots, whom the airlines do not train because they poach from all the world's
air forces, are coming up towards requirement age. That causes a pressure and
one to which we have responded. I shall ask Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall
to describe the way in which we have responded to that with measures that
enable our people to take the necessary qualifications and to remain for a
longer period within the Royal Air Force.
Mr Hood
605. It is the truth that it is near impossible to compete with
the private sector in the circumstances that you have just described? We met
engineers in the Falklands who said that they had been offered jobs at œ30,000
a year if they leave the services. There is no way that you will be able to
compete with that. Is that the problem?
(Mr Spellar) It would be in that context. We shall come on to pilots.
This is a broader national problem of companies not necessarily training
sufficient people for their needs and relying substantially on services
training. I alluded to that when talking about signals as well. That is not
entirely a negative issue. At the end of their period of work for us in the
services, it is a good thing that our service personnel are able to take the
skills that they have developed in the services into proper, long-serving
civilian employment. That is a good thing. We have to look at the balance.
We have to get a proper relationship with the outside firms so that we get a
longer period of return on our investment in the training that we have
undertaken. Of course, one of the temptations, understandably, very often is
that if at this stage of the economic cycle particular jobs are available,
people will want to take them now because they may not be available in another
period of time. That is one of the drivers in relation to the airlines. We
have been involved in discussions with the airlines as to the availability of
those positions. I shall ask Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall to describe the
more technical side of the scheme and the training provided.
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Before I do that perhaps I may
respond to your point, Mr Hancock? You put your finger on a crucial issue.
We have to retain the people who are in the Royal Air Force today and that
means looking at every factor. I touched on the headline reports that I see
on the attitude surveys. I spend one, two or three days a week out and about
listening to people; not talking to them but listening to them. In that way
I can identify the concerns that they have whether it is in the DHE or the way
in which their careers are managed and so on, so that we can introduce the
flexibility so that we can respond to the situation. In the case of the young
lady that you have mentioned, if there were a particular issue - an elderly
parent or career development aspirations - I do my very best to meet that, so
balancing the needs of the service against the needs of the individual. In
terms of the outside market, people do not join the Royal Air Force, the
British Army or the Royal Navy to go and work for an IT company; they join
the Armed Forces. We have to convince them that it remains a career of first
choice, with through-life career development, sensible promotion prospects,
sensible accommodation and sensible pay. The difficulty is that when you get
a sector like the IT world that is overheated at the moment, it is desperate.
Aerial erectors are being poached and IT people are being poached for salaries
that are extremely attractive. We have to look at the whole package of
opportunity that we give our people and their families in order that they stay
with us. In the case of pilots, the writing has been on the wall for two or
three years. The position as of now is that we are 95 fast jet pilots short
of our requirement. That is masked by a surplus of multi-engine junior pilots
so the global shortage is around 61. Thankfully, that translates into only
nine holes in actual cockpits because we have made use of people with other
skill sets to fill jobs on the ground that would otherwise have been filled
by skilled aircrew.
Mr Blunt
606. Does that mean that there are nine multi-million pound
aircraft not being used?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Potentially, but they will be used.
All I am saying is that against the 100 per cent requirement there are those
holes right now.
607. What is your shortage in junior officer fast jet pilots?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Ninety-five.
608. What is your percentage
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Ninety-five out of 500.
609. Of the order of 20 per cent.
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Yes.
610. Do you expect that position with the measures that you are
taking to get better or worse over the next three years?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Perhaps I can continue, but I shall
come back to that point. In recognition of this, we have done a number of
things. The first is to try to extend the period for which people remain
available for flying duties. This comes back to the example of the young
lady. Because of the drawback of the Armed Forces we have a backlog of people
- university cadets to whom we were committed to offer training - and some of
them will not join their frontline squadrons until they are 25, 27 or 29. You
will have seen that. We have set ourselves a target to increase the number
of direct entrants so that we will get them in the cockpits at 20 or 21.
Already the backlog has gone and the age spread of those moving into flight
training is dropping which will increase the time that they spend with us.
Beyond that, 500 posts that hitherto have been filled by qualified pilots have
been transferred to the new operational support branch that is now up and
running. We are grooming people within that branch. To increase the return
on service - the amount of time that they remain with us - we have looked at
the other end of the pipeline, the people in their mid to late 30s who are
leaving us. We have gone back to career management. If someone has a working
wife and they wish to stay at Lucas for five years, now we shall try to leave
them at Lucas for five years rather than move them. The PVR rate has
stabilised and is showing signs of decreasing for aircrew which is an
indication, as is the feedback that the Secretary gets, that the personnel
management measures are working.
Mr Hancock
611. What you are saying is very interesting, but it is true, is
it not, that a fast jet flight lieutenant pilot who seeks to leave the RAF to
go to a civilian airline will start on less money?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) In the civil sector?
612. Yes. A flight lieutenant fast jet pilot, leaving the RAF,
will start with a civilian airline on less money that he gets in the RAF?
They leave, do they not, because they enter a structure that will give them
promotion and good potential earnings in the future, which they do not see in
the RAF? Is it not also true that in some of your squadrons every single
pilot is seeking a civilian licence?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) There are a number of points there.
The entry salary will probably be lower, but almost certainly the individual
concerned will have a pension and a lump sum of money in his pocket. It is
indeed the case that a lot of people are doing their civilian licences. The
RAF, indeed all three Armed Forces, have introduced a scheme whereby we will
pay for the cost of the civilian licence in return for the individual
remaining in the cockpit until the age of 38. If they start their flying
career at 22 or 23, and remain there until the age of 38, I am not concerned
whether some wish to leave at that stage. We shall have had an excellent
return on the investment. If you look back at the last year or so, such
people were not getting into the cockpit on the frontline until they were 27
or 28 and some of them were leaving at 38, a mere eight or nine years return
of service. Returning to Mr Blunt's specific question, I do not know
precisely whether the situation will be better or worse. All the levers that
we have pulled are retention positive. All the indicators are that people are
responding to those levers: the flying pay rates, people who have decided to
stay in the Air Force as a result of ---
Mr Blunt
613. Is it your current forecast that the position regarding
junior officer pilots on fast jets will get better or worse over the next
three years?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) My current planning assumption is
that the problem will increase by about 40 people.
Mr Blunt: All I want you to do is to put the problem that you have to
deal with over the next three years into perspective. It will get worse over
the next three years from a position that is already dire. Over the last 10
minutes you have gone over, in detail, the measures that you are trying to
take to ameliorate the position. We understand them. As time is limited, I
want to move on to the Army.
Chairman
614. In fairness, you said that it was going to get worse, full
stop. What was the next sentence?
(Air Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall) Thank you. Those assumptions or
that modelling does not take account of the link-up scheme because it was
introduced only last year. At the moment we have 74 people on the register.
Potentially, they are giving us six months extension of service and 12 months
extension of service. They are in the bag right now. If that continues to
be successful and the operational tempo, which is a factor, as are flying pay
rates, continues on a positive trend, in a year's time I hope that I can sit
here and tell Mr Blunt that the prognosis is much better.
Mr Blunt
615. I want to turn to the Army as the position in the Army is
worse than in the other services. Brigadier Ritchie wrote an article in RUSI
in which he said that the net inflow now is 24 people a month into the Army.
For how many months has that average figure been sustained?
(General Sir Alex Harley) We have seen a turn round in those
figures since about November or December last year.
616. It is very recent?
(General Sir Alex Harley) It is recent. Those better figures
started to appear at the back end of the summer.
617. They have ceased to be negative and have started to become
positive.
(General Sir Alex Harley) The year before we were running at a net
permanent loss of about 100.
618. The sad thing is that on those rates it will take about 31
years to meet the manning targets, will it not?
(General Sir Alex Harley) You are quite right. For the remainder
of this year we seek to get that figure up to about a 58 net gain and for the
next four years we hope to get 140 a month net gain. Then we shall achieve
our target.
619. Is that why the Army manning target has slipped a year from
the date given in the SDR?
(General Sir Alex Harley) You will have to ask the Secretary for
that. It will be done by the year 2005.
(Mr Spellar) Perhaps I can clarify that. Mr Blunt is absolutely right
that the SDR said 2004. Subsequent PQs have made it clear that that means the
financial year 2004/5. So the manning date is by the 31 March 2005.
620. So the date in the SDR is wrong?
(Mr Spellar) It is the financial year 2004/5.
621. It actually means the 31 March 2005? Is that what you are
telling us?
(Mr Spellar) Instead of 31 December 2004.
Chairman: Three months' slippage perhaps.
Mr Blunt
622. At least. Some people would say that around 2004 means it
could be 2003/4. The fact is that 18 months after the SDR the date has
slipped a year. If it slips a year every 18 months we shall have two aircraft
carriers hopefully in service by the time the Army is fully manned. Even on
the current figures, the net inflow into the Army will take 30 years. The
point I am making is that there is still a very serious problem.
(General Sir Alex Harley) There is a problem and every year that
we miss our targets, our targets go up. This year I expect to meet virtually
100 per cent of my recruiting targets both for officers and men and by between
95 and 100 per cent of my output training targets. That will be the first
time that we have done that for some time. The challenge is a significant
one, but we are not necessarily put off by economics and full employment. We
have all sorts of imaginative ideas of how to take that on.
623. How many people do you expect to recruit from prison?
(General Sir Alex Harley) Not very many.
624. What effect do you think that information and the attendant
publicity that will go into the public domain will have on your recruitment
and on the quality of candidates who will put themselves forward?
(Mr Spellar) That is more of a political question. I have to say that
this was raised during defence questions. There were very mixed views from
the Opposition Benches and the response from the public has also been mixed.
On balance, in general, it has been in favour.
625. I am asking a technical question.
(Mr Spellar) We have had no evidence of it actually affecting the
attitudes of other recruits. We have had a few people who have said that such
people deserve a second chance in life and if they are properly assessed they
will be able to make good soldiers. We have not seen a negative impact from
the broad general public and in many ways we have had quite a positive impact.
I really think that it is a peripheral issue.
626. I was not talking about the wider public response.
(General Sir Alex Harley) We are not in the slightest bit ashamed
about it. We have often taken people from detention centres and prisons. We
have a line out to prisons. Many of our soldiers come from quite unfortunate
backgrounds. It is extremely easy in the barrack room and some of the places
that they come from to get into bad ways. We will look at a person, look at
his background and see why he was in prison, and if he is someone whom we
think is worth saving we do something about it. We do not actively go out to
recruit such people but I think that is something that we can do for society.
627. You are not actively going out to recruit them?
(General Sir Alex Harley) No. We have lines out to people who are
worth while and would like to join the Army. As long as they meet the test
and so on and they are not murderers and so on we will do something for them
if they do something for us.
628. Surely, if you are trying to recruit 15,000 high quality
people from the wider population, it sends out an extremely unfortunate
message.
(General Sir Alex Harley) No. Why should they not be high
quality? They can be as high quality as anybody else, but they have to pass
the tests.
629. Does it not send out a wider message to your rather more
substantial pool of recruits, which is 15,000, leaving aside the few tens or
few hundreds that you may recruit from prisons?
(General Sir Alex Harley) It is far less than a few hundred.
Chairman: Can we move on?
Mr Brazier
630. I have two brief supplementary questions to put to the
Minister relating to manning. The first is on efficiency savings. On Monday,
Mr Spellar, you were asked whether œ1.5 million had been allocated to reducing
orthopaedic waiting lists on the basis that that would get some of the several
thousands of serving personnel who are on the books but not currently fit for
service back into service which obviously would significantly reduce the
manning problem. You answered that Written Question by saying that there was
no œ1.5 million set aside for reducing orthopaedic waiting lists. The
question asked whether that money had been set aside and then taken off as an
efficiency saving. Last week we asked a lot of questions about why we were
not being given the details on efficiency savings. Would you like to
reconsider your answer? Is it really true that there was no money set aside -
the œ1.5 million?
(Mr Spellar) When I answered the question I obviously looked at the
advice and I was advised that that was not the case, that there was not a sum
of money allocated which was then removed.
631. In an efficiency saving.
(Mr Spellar) Yes.
632. I am surprised because at the time there was quite a lot of
talk in the service about it. Thank you.
(General Sir Alex Harley) We had hoped that there would be. There
was a possibility that there would be some money set aside. Nevertheless,
ministers gave us the authority to get people through physiotherapy training
by private means and some of the commands have been doing that.
633. In the light of that answer, on the separate point of
physiotherapy, let me state this again. We may be at cross-purposes. The
allegation which lay behind the question was that in among the list of
efficiency savings which the Committee pressed hard to see last week was œ1.5
million that had been originally set aside to reduce orthopaedic waiting lists
separately from physiotherapy, specifically for minor operations. You are
quite certain, on the basis of the advice that you had, that that money was
never set aside and then removed as an efficiency saving?
(Mr Spellar) But as you are pressing that issue I shall certainly go
back and revisit that and press further. Certainly that was the advice that
I had.
634. Mr Spellar, when General Sir Alex Harley earlier answered as
to the issues most affecting retention, if I remember correctly the second
highest issue was the state of married quarters, was it not?
(Mr Spellar) It was accommodation generally.
(General Sir Alex Harley) I meant generally.
635. Married quarters and single accommodation.
(Mr Spellar) Sometimes single living accommodation gets forgotten.
636. I quite agree that it should have a high priority too. Last
week when questioning Mr Balmer, we discovered that the figure of œ11 million
had been taken out of the married quarters repair programme which is almost
exactly the sum that has been put into the new alliance that the Committee has
welcomed. There seems to be some disjunction in policy here. When the
Government were first elected there were a number of statements made that this
was a high priority, not least in your response to our report in July 1997.
Since then it appears to have completely disappeared off the agenda. There
is no reference at all to it in the quite long section on Armed Forces
families. It is just in the White Paper. It has disappeared completely and
we discovered that the œ11 million had been taken out of the budget. Mr
Balmer told us that that œ11 million had not been taken out of the budget, but
merely deferred to a subsequent year. However, he was unable to tell us to
which year it had been deferred. What is actually happening to the programme?
(Mr Spellar) The programme, as you know, is based on the previous
Government's sale to Addington Properties and the sum of money allocated was
to upgrade properties. The subsequent analysis of the properties revealed
that a greater sum of money was required in order to achieve that. Therefore,
the timescale has moved to accommodate that extra expenditure. That has moved
to 2005. That is still on programme to be completed in 2005. Indeed, during
this financial year we shall be upgrading 1,450 properties and we plan to
spend at least œ60 million during the next year. Mr Balmer's remarks were
consistent with maintaining the completion of the programme within the
anticipated timescale.
637. Forgive me, but I did not quite understand that answer. As
I understood it, your answer confirms what he said, which was that you are
aiming for the same timescale. As I understand it, the study that you carried
out showed that you require more money than was in the programme, but the
amount of money in the programme for repairs to married quarters, some of
which are in a terrible state, was reduced last year. Are you saying that
figure that you have quoted for this year is more than œ11 million up on what
was planned for this year, or is it the same as what was planned for this year
in that programme, or less?
(Air Marshal Pledger) There is a slight amount of confusion.
Firstly, it is not the repair programme.
638. It is upgrading.
(Air Marshal Pledger) We are talking about an upgrading
programme.
(Mr Spellar) The upgrading is separate from the repairs.
(Air Marshal Pledger) We are talking about the whole of the
housing programme as one entity of which one component of that is a
determination to upgrade married service family accommodation to a certain
standard. That programme runs across a period that started years ago and now
will be completed, because of that additional cost associated with the
condition survey, in 2005. The balance between the various years has been
affected by a reduction of œ11 million this year but the total programme is
still intact. As to whether œ11 million will be consumed over the next few
years is that not a determinant of the way in which we carry out that
programme.
639. From your earlier remarks, the fact remains that it is not
just œ11 million but also the additional cost associated with the extra
deficiencies that the study to which you referred drew up.
(Air Marshal Pledger) Originally when we started this we said
2003, but when we completed the total condition survey of those houses the
conclusion was an extra œ110 million, which is why it has moved two years
further on to accommodate that extra cost.
640. Chairman, you will agree that this is a subject in which the
Committee has taken a huge interest and it has been very critical of
successive Governments in respect to this. It is difficult to exaggerate how
unhappy a lot of service families are about the state of married quarters.
(Air Marshal Pledger) As we said, there are 40 or 50 being
completed this year. There are other initiatives in PFI. Kidworth (?) is
next on that list. Lossiemouth has been completed. The evidence is now there
that the programme is delivering.
Chairman
641. We shall have to come back to this at a later date.
(Mr Spellar) And single living accommodation.
Mr Blunt
642. On the issue of manning and overstretch and the assumptions
underlying the SDR, Brigadier Ritchie in an article in RUSI about recruiting
and retention - I refer this to Air Marshal Pledger if I may - said, "At a
more fundamental level the key to reducing overstretch is to achieve a better
balance between commitments and resources as Mr Spellar has emphasised. This
was a key principle to emerge from the SDR and events in Kosovo and now in
East Timor have made it a significant challenge". Is it not time to face up
to the fact that all of you have given overstretch as reasons for part of the
manning crisis? Mr Spellar told us at the beginning of this meeting that the
assumptions underlying the SDR were valid for the last 18 months and continue
to be valid, but is not the problem that if those assumptions were valid you
could not give the operational commitment as a reason for overstretch because
it should be accommodated within the SDR.
(Mr Spellar) What I also said was that the SDR was to reshape the Armed
Forces to deal with certain operations and commitments. That was over a
three-year period. Those events arrived sooner than that. We are not the
masters of those external events. Those came then, and as I challenged your
colleague in the Commons, if he is saying that we should not have had the
commitments, he should say which ones we should not have undertaken.
643. It is the balance between commitments and resources.
(Mr Spellar) Events drive that, as I say. You would not have predicted
a number of the events that took place over the past 18 months, and indeed we
were preparing the forces to be able to take on those commitments, but
inevitably you have to have a phased schedule or timetable for doing that and
that timetable was over three years. After all, we prepared during the cold
war for about 40 odd years. Thankfully, those events did not take place, but
we had much more time to prepare for them.
644. What you are saying is quite important. I said that the
assumptions were valid from when the SDR was published. The fact is that you
are saying that the operational assumptions about the SDR are not sustainable
until the SDR has reshaped the Armed Forces to support those potential
commitments in 18 months' time.
(Mr Spellar) They are sustainable, but they provide pressures within
the system and that is precisely why there are calls on the reserve in order
to fund those. That brings into question the straightforward pressures that
arise. That is the nature of operations. If those operations are required,
that puts on pressure. We have to say how we can best accommodate and
ameliorate those and how soon we can start to draw down our commitment there.
You have had successive announcements by the Secretary of State over the past
few months drawing down our commitment there and that is reflected in the
figures that we gave you earlier on the percentage of those who are now
engaged in operations back to the 1997 level. That is the nature of a more
expeditionary force, but also of a force that is able to undertake those
operations on behalf of international humanity and the international
community.
Chairman: Mr Gapes?
Mr Gapes
645. Can I switch focus to the Territorial Army. Paragraph 61 of
the White Paper says that we are going to continue to look for opportunities
for the TA to become involved in operations, including the use of compulsory
mobilisation if the operational situation warrant this. How do you intend to
use compulsory mobilisation to support regular forces?
(Mr Spellar) That is contained within the provisions of the reserve
forces legislation and we have examined that and the assumptions on that are
robust. The question then is as to whether there is a requirement to do that
and, indeed, in the light of the current situation in Kosovo and the draw down
of our regular forces we have concluded that there is not a requirement to
take that course but we have mechanisms for undertaking that if that is
required. Now that obviously is partly about operational requirement but also
about discussions with not just our reserve forces personnel but also of
course with the employers through the National Employers' Liaison Committee
which is a very important medium and a very helpful group in this regard and
it is getting that balance right and ensuring that we have reserve forces, as
we said at the time of the restructuring of the Territorial Army, that are
both useable and used.
646. Are there any particular skills which are more likely to
require compulsory mobilisation? Are there any particular areas which would
be more affected than others?
(Mr Spellar) We have a particular requirement in terms of a number of
technical areas, particularly on the signals side, and a very significant
input from the reserves into our operations in the Balkans and they have been
a vital part of our operation. I think that again very much highlights the
policy of moving towards those skills that are required in particular to
sustain the logistics and support side of the armed forces and the
restructuring of the TA in order to achieve that, although of course our
discussions are in terms of the TA we should not forget the other reserve
forces and commitment that they make.
647. Have you had any resistance or difficulties with particular
employers because of the expertise of the individuals concerned, the fact they
are filling a niche within our forces but at the same time they may be key
personnel within the companies with which they are working?
(Mr Spellar) I think it is a mixed picture, as you would expect,
because many employers do recognise the advantages. This is why I say the
role of the Employers' Liaison Committee has been extremely helpful in getting
a wider range of employers to realise that they end up with better trained and
more committed employees than ones who have a wider range of experience. They
find that on balance this is a favourable position for the companies. It
would also be fair to say that certainly anecdotally, and I think it was
sustainable, in the past there had been some difficulties with some hospital
trusts with regard to medical personnel. I think there has been a
considerable improvement and I would like to pay tribute also to the work of
our colleagues in the Department of Health in getting a broader view across
the Health Service recognising the need for a Defence Medical Service
particularly in areas of operations and the need for that capacity and also
questions about maintaining skill levels and so on. Again, I have to report
that we have a much more favourable position and a much more proactive
position. That again is encouraging I do not think there is a universal view
but what I would say is that as a result of a sustained campaign there has
been a very considerable broader improvement.
(General Sir Alex Harley) Just to add to what the Minister was
saying because he has given you a fairly full picture of that, we have last
year started the new mobilisation centre for the Territorial Army which is
based up at Chilwell and this has gone down extremely well with both employers
and reservists and TA personnel because for the first time we have had a
proper centre which takes people through and gives them a certain amount of
training, documents them properly, provides them with assistance to fill in
all their forms - these are claim forms for employers - so there is a proper
system of not only mobilising them but demobilising them with medical and
dental inspections and all the rest of it. That has been very well done and
has gone down very well. It also allows for a much more flexible way of
responding to the employment market so that we have been able to reduce the
terms that we would like to have people, and coming back to the Minister's
point about medical personnel, is one of the key areas where we have been able
to use NHS trusts is we now have consultants coming through this thing in
periods of as little as a month or two months so instead of having people for
six-month tours we are able where the shoe pinches to flexibly apply terms of
service.
Mr Brazier
648. Chairman, two very quick points. First, you will confirm in
the light of your earlier remarks, Minister, the answers to the PQs earlier
which said by far the largest single slice of reservists in the Balkans has
been infantry, 40 per cent. You earlier seemed to suggest that the figures
emphasise the shift towards specialists. In fact, infantry have a much higher
pro rata ratio among the reservists called out for use in the Balkans.
(Mr Spellar) Overall, but the signals support has been absolutely
critical.
649. I understand that but it is numerically much smaller.
(Mr Spellar) Yes.
650. Thank you. The second point is the Committee asked for a
quarterly break down of what is happening with the manning of the reservists
as a whole which you have punctiliously provided in all but one detail. Both
the Committee and myself through PQs for some time have been trying to get
that one detail filled in which is a particular concern among TA officers
which is the way they are being, they feel, steadily squeezed out of command
positions. Could we have the figures? You have given us the number of
regular officers commanding TA units, which has risen significantly over the
last quarter. Could we have the number of remaining territorial commanders
of territorial units?
(Mr Spellar) We can certainly have a look at that for you.
Mr Brazier: Thank you.
Chairman: We are moving off over-stretch and undermanning but it seems
to me that you will always have the problem despite your best efforts as long
as the expenditure is at the level it is or committed to and we will always
be grubbing around patching up the system which is increasingly difficult to
patch up. I commend you on the efforts that you are making with the bad hand
you have been presented with. We are now back with Mr Brazier.
Mr Brazier
651. You more or less answered the main question earlier on so I
am going to put the supplementary with it. The nitty-gritty question is
whether or not you are satisfied that the Armed Forces are currently capable
of meeting the SDR concurrency requirements, the requirements for two
substantial actions at once. The supplementary relates specifically to the
Army which is do you really believe that the current Formation Readiness Cycle
is going to work or does it not really, as many cynics are saying,
institutionalise the problems of undermanning in the Army?
(Mr Spellar) Do you want the first answer from the CJO or the second
answer from the General whom you fixed with your beady eye?
652. The first question is are you really satisfied that we are
capable of meeting the concurrency requirements from SDR. The supplementary
is specifically an Army supplementary. Is the Formation Readiness Cycle
almost in place and is it not just institutionalising undermanning in the
Army?
(Vice Admiral Sir Ian Garnett) Mr Brazier, I think one has to look at
how United Kingdom declare forces for operations. Certainly I can carry out
my current commitments with the forces I have been given. I believe if the
United Kingdom wished to go into a major operation based on the SDR
assumptions they could do that. But clearly, back in the three Services that
would lead to considerable pain, as you have been discussing during the
morning. So from my perspective as CJO, I understand that the United Kingdom
would not commit forces and me to do an operation that could not be sustained.
653. Yes. Let's dig a little further on the single service basis
in the Army which currently has the biggest manning problems. Could I ask you
then, General, do you think that the Formation Readiness Cycle is nearly in
place? Do you think that it is actually going to deliver? We had a lot of
questions on this when the SDR was originally published.
(General Sir Alex Harley) It is certainly not designed to
institutionalise undermanning. The whole idea of it is to be able to manage
the situation and to respond to readiness in a much more coherent way. It is
designed to cope with a two-year tour interval so that you have two brigades,
one in Germany and one in United Kingdom, an armoured one in Germany and a
mechanised one in the United Kingdom, which are ready to go on operations.
You then have a further two brigades, one in Germany and one in the United
Kingdom, who are preparing and training up to be able to take over the
operational role. That is in a different year's cycle from the first brigades
I mentioned. Then you have another two brigades, one in Germany and one in
the United Kingdom, whose function it is to take on all the other tasks that
are probably irritants when people are not on operations and not training and
preparing for operations. So it takes on all the tasks that have to be done
in peace-time which people may find irksome but nevertheless they have got to
be done. That cycle goes round every two years. It also means that if the
Ministry of Defence wishes to deploy a brigade of a particular type - and of
course any operation you cannot predict because of the enemy, the ground and
so on and so forth exactly what construction you might put on that formation
- if you needed to have armoured units rather than mechanised units in greater
numbers you have two brigades that are at the same state of training and
therefore you can backfill or modify your programme from people who are at the
same stage of training. So again it will stop the thing that we have been
doing in the past to reconstruct by taking people who are not at particular
stages of training. So the whole thing is to manage the process on that basis
much better and more flexibly so the soldiers involved in those brigades know
in one year they are going to be doing this, the next year they are going to
be doing that, and the third year they are likely to be on operations. Not
all parts of the Army quite fit into those brigade cycles. There will be MLRS
and certain specialist signals and certain specialist logistics that do not
quite fit, and we are going to have to manage that in a rather different way
but, generally speaking, I think I have described to you how it should work.
As to your question about where is it. It has got slightly delayed as a
result of the operational tempo last year but it is now beginning to form up
because you have got to have people in the right place at the right training
level to really make it coherent. Over the next few months as we reduce
people on deployment it will start to come together in a much more coherent
way.
654. Picking up your closing point, I think the Committee
understands the structure quite well, we did pursue it at some length, and one
of the things that came out in the original questioning on SDR was where are,
to take an example, the large numbers of Directing Staff, "enemy" and others
to come from from those two intermediate brigades, the two that are in the
process of the work-up to be the next year's operational brigades, and the
answer seemed to be that they were going to be taken out of the brigades that
were at the top of the peak that were supposed to be available for operations
because there were no other spare troops from anywhere else. If you put that
problem on top of the on-going commitment in the Balkans it is pretty
difficult to see how you have got two brigades that are even two brigades
which is, let's be honest, in a modern context a very, very small force
available for operations at short notice.
(General Sir Alex Harley) The brigades match the SDR requirement
to be able to field two brigades at any one time, one on a short operation for
six months and one that you could sustain for longer. As to your point about
where would the "enemy" come from ---
655. And the large numbers of Directing Staff too because you know
how many it takes to organise an exercise.
(General Sir Alex Harley) And Directing Staff. It allows you to
be able to take them from which of the three brigades might be appropriate.
If, for example, the "enemy" tasks and Directing Staff tasks were irksome and
nothing to do with readiness and the whole of the brigade that was going to
required for Directing Staff and "enemy" was committed then you would go and
look at the brigade which was not training for operations which was the one
that was picking up all the ordinary tasks. If it happened to be that the
"enemy" tasks were really important in terms of keeping the brigade waiting
to go on operations topped up with skills and so on and so forth you might use
that. It would depend whether that brigade was on operations or not on
operations. But what you probably would not do was plunder the brigade that
was training to go on operations because it has got tasks and missions to do
that. But you do have the flexibility to take the brigade which is ready for
operations if it is not on operations and the brigade which is carrying out
all the routine tasks.
Mr Brazier: We are getting to the heart of it now.
Chairman: We are getting to the end of it, Mr Brazier!
Mr Brazier
656. Could I pursue this a little further. What the sceptics are
saying within the Army is that this is all very well but how many brigade
level exercises do you expect to see take place next year because you have
that the core of the SDR is a war-fighting capability and being able to put
top-quality troops in to be able to fight a high intensity operation? In
practice, there has been very little brigade level training over the last
couple of years because of operational commitments of a peace-keeping nature.
How many brigade level exercises do you think will take place next year either
to get the two that are supposed to be there up to level or to get the next
two groomed for the year after?
(General Sir Alex Harley) I am afraid I do not have the exercise
plot for next year but certainly formation training for the brigade which is
training for formation operations and the one that is ready for operations but
not committed will be a requirement each year. It does not necessarily mean
that you have to deploy the whole brigade because there are all sorts of ways
of exercising a brigade and of course money comes into this as well.
657. It is a requirement but it is not happening.
(General Sir Alex Harley) It is not happening at the moment
because we have just come through a situation where 47 per cent of the Army
is committed to operations and they are still coming back and having
operational tour leaves and on and so forth. That is why I said it has not
been able to gear itself up. Gradually it will now do so because people are
coming back off leave. You have heard the revised numbers in the Balkans.
(Mr Spellar) Operations do tend to disrupt exercises sometimes.
Chairman: We have to move on. We are coming on to the easy questions
now, Minister, ethnic minorities, gays in the military and women. Mike Gapes?
Mr Gapes
658. I will try and be very brief but these are quite complex
questions. The White Paper Volume 2 performance report gives us this table
of the percentage of recruits from ethnic minorities. The target for last
year was two per cent and only the Army achieved that. The RAF was
significantly below, 1.4, and the Navy was 1.6. The target is to increase
each year, three per cent for the next year, and the intention is to get it
up to five per cent by the end of 2001-2002. Are those targets too ambitious?
Is it realistic to have those targets and why are you not meeting the targets?
(Mr Spellar) We are making major strides and those represent
considerable increases. Those strides are not just recognised by us, they are
very much recognised by the Commission for Racial Equality who work very
closely with us. I think it is fair to say that from an initial fairly
confrontational situation between our two organisations we have actually got
an extremely cooperative relationship and one which is producing dividends.
We are making progress by getting members of the ethnic communities to
recognise the Armed Forces as a career of choice, particularly through the use
of our recruitment teams comprising serving members of the Armed Forces who
are themselves from the communities. We are obviously putting in a
considerable effort to putting across the message from the Ministry of Defence
and the Armed Forces, but we know that the most effective people to put that
across are serving personnel in uniform from the communities themselves. I
have been across the country to a number of recruitment initiatives,
conferences but also very particularly recruitment initiatives, with young
people and this is having an impact and you can see that starting to work its
way through. You then look at the cumulative effect as young people join the
Forces and as they start to develop their careers, and then they are coming
back into their communities and spreading that message as well. We are
looking at getting close to our targets and moving on. We regard them as
challenging targets but we do not regard them as being unattainable. I would
stress that this is not about political correctness or anything like that.
This is about securing the best young people for the Armed Forces and
broadening the pool from which we are drawing in order to get those best young
people. Also, and this is the message we have to particularly get across to
the parents in the communities as well, that we are offering very good career
prospects in the way we have been describing and in many cases very good
career prospects after they have left the Services carrying those skills that
they have developed within the Services.
659. That is all very welcome and I am sure that those people who
are within the Armed Services at the moment who are doing that recruitment job
are doing their very best, however, clearly in at least two of the Services
the targets have not been met. Would it be helpful if there was a senior role
figure within the armed forces? We have now got senior black and Asian
figures in the judiciary, we have got them in Parliament, we have got them in
the media, yet we do not have anyone acting as a role model. General Colin
Powell of course is probably the most important figure in the United States
military and is certainly a role model for many people in the United States.
How many years will it be before we have somebody in a senior position from
the ethnic minorities in this country?
(Mr Spellar) A number of those who are involved in the recruitment
campaign are officers and they are moving up the officer level. This is not
a case in any way of preferential or positive discrimination, this is very
much people advancing on the basis of their capability and therefore, as you
rightly say, being seen in senior commanding roles within the Armed Forces is
a very important part of getting that message across to the communities. If
you look at the increase that there has been in the number of serving
personnel from the ethnic communities you would not expect that to happen
overnight because obviously you have got to get up to a critical mass of
numbers and people moving through the system in the progressions that we have
been describing. I think if you actually met some of our recruitment team,
you would find that they have a very very positive message to tell and they
are not just telling it to audiences such as this, they are telling it to the
communities.
660. I have met people who came to the Redbridge show in my
borough and one of those was a black officer who was there so I accept the
point you are making, but clearly there are historic problems of attitudes
towards ethnic minorities within the Armed forces and nobody is denying that.
That is one of the reasons the Commission for Racial Equality expressed their
concern. What are you doing to address that problem and to change attitudes?
(Mr Spellar) This is precisely why the Commission for Racial Equality
acknowledged the tremendous steps that have been taken, the leadership that
has been shown by the senior officers within the Armed Forces, and the way in
which that message has been transmitted down the lines of command. And one
of the advantages of an organisation such as the Armed Forces is that
intentions at the top can translate down the lines of command. You have got
a very clear change. That has been seen not just by us but, as I say, the
Commission for Racial Equality testify to that and give a very high
commendation to the senior officers not only for making the declaration but
also for making sure it flows through the system.
(Air Marshal Pledger) And there are certain practicalities in
doing that. There is a very clear system now available to report and deal
with any harassment and there are training courses for all members of the
Armed Forces in, shall we say, dealing with these kinds of issues. Indeed,
they are mandatory at certain levels but all training forces have a component
of dealing with the ethnic minority issues and removing any harassment.
661. You have got things in the report about recruitment from
ethnic minorities. Can you tell us something about the tensions of ethnic
minorities because one of the problems that arose from the past is that people
might not stay in. They may come in with very high expectations and after
some months or maybe longer for whatever reason they leave. What figures do
you have and what monitoring do you carry out of these issues of retention?
(Mr Spellar) I do not have any evidence of there being an unfavourable
level. Indeed, I think our problem is much more perceptions of people before
they come in which are very often based on historic incidents and some of
those that get highly publicised in the media rather than their personal
experience when they are actually in the Services and, indeed, sometimes they
get criticised by people from outside. When members from the ethnic groups
say, "I have had no problems in the Services," they are almost accused by some
people of being in denial when they are just relating their experience. So
therefore I think it is more external perception as a hurdle for people coming
in rather than internal perceptions.
662. If you have any information about retention rates in the
three Services it would be helpful.
(Mr Spellar) Certainly.
(General Sir Alex Harley) We do monitor it and to answer your
question certainly in the Army their retention rank for rank is slightly
better than for white people, not very much but it is noticeable.
663. What about the civilian side, what are you doing to encourage
recruitment of ethnic minorities into civilian personnel?
(Mr Spellar) That is within the Permanent Secretary's domain and we
again have a positive campaign within the Ministry of Defence consistent with
the approach across the Civil Service.
664. So are there figures for the percentage of employees on the
civilian side of the MoD who are from ethnic minorities?
(Mr Spellar) There certainly are and I will write to you with them.
Mr Colvin
665. Have you thought of positive discrimination at all, for
example a Sikh battalion?
(Mr Spellar) The question I think you have to ask is whether that would
be well received by the members of the communities who are actually in the
Armed Forces. In many cases their view is that they want to be treated as
members of the Armed Forces on their personal capabilities and their personal
attainments; they do not want to be differentiated.
Chairman: We have five minutes to deal with a very important subject,
women in the military, and an equally short period to deal with another
contentious issue, so I am sorry but we will have to move on.
Laura Moffatt
666. Guess who is asking the women questions, but I am really
pleased to be. Actually I think you have a good news story here, you have had
a much better recruitment rate, in fact better than this Committee I have to
tell you. That is something to bear in mind.
(Mr Spellar) It is their retention problem.
667. Definitely. Let us talk about what can be a sensitive issue,
and again it is a good news story, the increase in percentage of jobs
available to women in the armed forces. Who decides which jobs are available
and how is the criteria set?
(Mr Spellar) Advice from the services but ultimately it is the decision
of the Secretary of State.
668. Directly. It is well worth us talking to him about that
then, it is not just a question of the services themselves deciding, it is the
Secretary of State.
(Mr Spellar) We take very seriously the views and advice of the
services, both in terms of their views as senior officers but also any views
they have as to how this might impact on operational effectiveness at the
sharp end.
669. Okay. We have talked about a better story on recruitment, the
next difficulty that is perceived for women in the British armed forces is
career progression. As lovely as you chaps are this may be an indication of
how difficult it is for women to come through into positions of power. Who
is monitoring that and who is looking at the issue of if women are
disadvantaged once they are in the services?
(Mr Spellar) I think what you would have to look at also is the age
profile of senior officers and also the cohort movement of women officers
within the individual services, therefore the timescale within which women
have come into a number of the services and certainly in any numbers.
Inevitably, in a career progression, you are going to see that developing.
Indeed, you are seeing women advancing into higher and higher positions in the
armed forces. Interestingly enough, the comment from many of those, and there
is always a story, the first woman of a particular rank, they say: "You know,
I will be delighted when nobody is noticing." That is happening and happening
more and more. I am sure as you have been around various establishments you
will have seen an increasing number not only of women officers and, indeed,
women NCOs but also moving into higher levels of command.
670. How do we make sure that their career progression is the same
as the men, that they are not being disadvantaged? What criteria are you
using?
(Air Marshall Sir Anthony Bagnall) Certainly, from the perception of
the Royal Air Force, when I have talked to lady officers, lady NCOs, they feel
that they have genuinely equal opportunities today. We have 29 female junior
officer pilots, 26 navigators, and when I talk to them they say: "The
opportunities are there, it is up to me and my colleagues to seize them and
to make the best of them". Certainly on behalf of the Royal Air Force I
believe the opportunities are there and the girls know they are there.
Laura Moffatt: As I say, I think it is one of the good news stories for
the armed forces. You need to be proud of them.
Chairman: We have five minutes. Mike Hancock.
Mr Hancock
671. Five minutes, quickly, on the issue of gays and the recent
change in policy towards homosexuals serving in the armed forces. Long
overdue, most welcome I think by most reasonably sound thinking people. Would
any of you agree with the comments that have materialised since that
announcement that there was a form of institutional antagonism towards
homosexuals in the armed forces? If you do feel that, how do you feel it will
be overcome? The policy itself changing will not do that, what efforts are
going to be made to make some positive steps to overcome that issue?
(Mr Spellar) What the policy does is the policy lays down the code of
conduct and the code of conduct is what we, as the Ministry of Defence and the
service chiefs as the officers in charge of their services, expect of the
people under their command. As we have seen also with the change in attitude
on race and ethnic issues, a clear lead from the services to implement a
requirement is something that very clearly works its way through the system
and changes attitudes further down the line.
672. None of your service chiefs here believe that there is any
form of institutionalised antagonism towards the gay community?
(Mr Spellar) What do you mean by "institutionalised"?
673. The army, the navy or the RAF are against it on principle.
That ethic of "we do not want gays in the military" is not going to be simply
washed away by a Government policy decision, you might hope it will be but
that in itself is not. If all three of you say "I do not think it is a
problem", fine, I would like it on the record.
(Mr Spellar) But as institutions the services were part of the decision
as to how we implemented the decision of the European Court of Human Rights.
As institutions ---
674. Institutions are made up of people.
(Mr Spellar) --- if you are saying about attitudes by some people in
the services then they would be expected to conform to the code of conduct as
announced by the Secretary of State and as laid down by the service chiefs and
transmitted through the chain of command.
675. The code of conduct, is that now available, is that now a
public document?
(Mr Spellar) It is in the library of the House.
676. Can you tell us then, the commanding officers are going to be
put in a position of having to make a decision based on that code of conduct
and they will make that presumably and hopefully in good faith at the time,
if there is a subsequent action against that decision, where does the chain
of command go, right up to you?
(Mr Spellar) Within the normal procedure of redress of grievance.
677. You have given the indication, both from the political level
and from the senior service level, that will be robustly defended, have you?
(Mr Spellar) We always ---
678. Not always.
(Mr Spellar) When we put out codes of conduct or we put out
instructions, we always implement those.
679. What work has been done in advance of the decision last week
to analyse the effects of lifting this ban on the three services? What
analysis have you done?
(Mr Spellar) The discussion had to be on the basis of implementing
them. If we were looking at a full examination of the impact, that would have
been the process we would have had under the service discipline acts under the
Standing Committee procedure. We had a situation, the legal position and the
Ministry of Defence and the service chiefs, how we effectively implement that
through the services consistent with the law and with maintaining military and
operational effectiveness.
680. What was done to assess the effects on the three services of
lifting the ban? I welcome it myself but I would be interested to know from
our three service chiefs what did they put in to see what would happen on
their service? What difficulties did they perceive to be imminent going to
face the commanding officers?
(Mr Spellar) What do you mean by "work", Mike?
681. What thought process?
(Mr Spellar) The thought processes went into drawing up a code of
conduct that would be workable and would operate within the framework of the
law.
682. You are perfectly satisfied that all the groundwork that
needed to be done to make this as smooth as possible transitionally has
occurred?
(Air Marshall Pledger) Absolutely.
(Mr Spellar) That is why we have sent out the briefing pack to the
commanding officers.
Mr Hancock: Could you tell me is the policy of not allowing a Nepalese
born Gurkha to become colonel of one of the Gurkha battalions still in force
or has that now been dropped?
Chairman: Is this a homosexual question?
Mr Hancock
683. It is a question I could not get in earlier.
(Mr Spellar) I will write to you, Mr Hancock.
(General Sir Alex Harley) There is a Gurkha who is a commanding
officer.
684. Currently, but I understand he is the last. There is no
policy generally?
(General Sir Alex Harley) On merit.
(Mr Spellar) I will write to you.
Chairman: Make your departure very swiftly, Minister. Thank you very
much to you and your team.
