Examination of witnesses (Questions 220
- 225)
WEDNESDAY 15 DECEMBER 1999
MS ESTELLE
MORRIS and PROFESSOR
MICHAEL BARBER
220. Could I just interrupt you there. I am
rather puzzled by how you can transfer powers contained in an
Act of Parliament for a local education authority to someone else
via a civil contract.
(Professor Barber) You can do it certainly through
the Secretary of State's powers to make a direction which can
shift those functions. So the Secretary of State under the powers
of the School Standards and Framework Act can direct that certain
functions are performed in a particular way. That will be the
outcome at the end of the Islington negotiation. There will be
a friendly direction from us at the invitation of the authority
to pass some powers over to the function provider.
Chairman: Are you happy with that, Helen?
Helen Jones
221. I am still somewhat confused here. You
are saying the Act gives the Secretary of State the power by direction
to override what is the specific power in the School Standards
and Framework Act given to local education authorities.
(Estelle Morris) I would have thought had there been
contradictory powers in that School Standards and Framework Act,
which you and I spent many months in Committee discussing, that
lawyers would have drawn our attention to it. I can say that the
legal basis on which we are able to act in intervention is that
the Secretary of State does have the power to instruct and without
that we would not be able to intervene. You are the first person
to have questioned its legal foundation and, with the greatest
respect, I hope that you are wrong!
222. I am concerned.
(Estelle Morris) I am sure it is sound.
Mr O'Brien
223. Very briefly, as part of the broader accountability,
one of the areas of concern I have in thinking of the transfer
back from private sector to the LEAs, and referring to one of
your earlier answers about some LEA problems being so historic
that the seedcorn for their own recovery must be rather difficult
to find if there at all, is, in order to avoid the children becoming
victims again of process, we should have some form of accountability,
which I dare say may rest with you, Minister, to avoid cyclicality.
One could be in recovery and then there is the danger it could
descend again and therefore would have to be pushed into further
recovery. I am just questioning whether there is some process
either in place or put in place to take account of the possibility
of it becoming cyclical rather than a steady, one would hope,
curve of recovery.
(Estelle Morris) I think that is an important point
and that is probably why, although we are at the start of contracts
and inviting private sector involvement, we have to think beyond
the first three or five years in tender contracts. Plainly because
we are more than two years away from that we have not finally
developed our policies. Michael talked about the irreversible
shift in terms of the performance of the local authority and,
having put all this investment in, all I can do is assure you
that we would not stop at that point. I am not one who believes
at that point we can just say, "Let's go back to the way
we were". I opened our comments today by talking about the
fact that we are exploring a new way of doing things and new relationships
right across the Education Service. I suspect that that will change
and that is why it is so difficult to predict what will happen
at the end of the contract. I think the way the Committee has
emphasised the need to look at that early is a message well received.
Mr St Aubyn
224. Minister, you have painted a new vista
of the private sector playing a bigger role in LEAs and the running
of schools and yet you seem to be happy to promote an old fashioned
"them and us" attitude to the part of the private sector
which has played the biggest role in education up to now, ie,
the independent schools. Do you see a contradiction in your attitude
to the new players and denying a partnership role to those who
have the most experience of actually teaching kids?
(Estelle Morris) I think that the involvement of the
private sector is often in providing services in school improvements
across an area; it is not in terms of running schools. I would
mention, and I could wax lyrical on this but shall resist it,
the work we have done over the last two and a half years in terms
of building links between ourselves and the independent schools.
I know I have spoken, for example, at the annual conference of
probably every independent school organisation that exists in
this country. I know that we have put aside money so that proper
links can be made between the independent and the private sector
so that all children can benefit. Mr St Aubyn and I just have
different political philosophies. We are raising standards for
the many and he will continue to only raise them for the few.
Mr St Aubyn: We want to raise them for the many
with value for money as well.
Chairman
225. In the two minutes we have left can I thank
you Minister and Professor Barber for what I have found an excellent
session. In my experience of the private sector there is no finish,
there is no winning post. Can I say that if you have not waxed
lyrical you have certainly ridden a wonderful up-and-down ride
like something from Blackpool with questions coming hither and
thither. Can I thank you for the way in which you have answered
our questions, very bluntly, very straightforwardly. There was
one that deserved a written answer which we will anticipate. Thank
you both for coming and helping the Committee with our inquiry.
(Estelle Morris) Thank you for the courtesy.
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