Examination of witnesses (Questions 20
- 39)
WEDNESDAY 9 FEBRUARY 2000
LORD PUTTNAM
and MS CAROL
ADAMS
20. Can I push you a little harder on that.
What would you say to those who would argue that the job of management
is for a manager trained in different skills and so the person
who manages a school environment should be a manager and does
not have to be a teacher at all, that a good manager could provide
the environment in which teaching can take place better than the
teacher ill-equipped to manage?
(Lord Puttnam) I think two years ago I probably would
have unequivocally agreed with that, today I do not. Having talked
to a lot of teachers I am convinced that you have to have some
knowledge of life at the chalkface in order to manage. I have
actually done a 180 degree swing on that. It is quite reasonable
for one of you to say to me "What on earth makes you think
you can be Chairman of the GTC without that experience?"
and I would not have a sitisfactory answer to that.
Mr Foster
21. Lord Puttnam, I want to bring you back to
this focus on the minority of bad teachers and the way the media
portrays that. Given your previous career, a lot of teachers will
be pinning their hopes on you being able to portray them in a
far more positive light. How do you think we have to go about
this?
(Lord Puttnam) The answer, to an extent, lies in this
room but against that wall. We need to get a fair shake from the
media, and the media have to decide what sort of teaching profession
and what sort of country they want to represent. Can I give you
a rather graphic example that I got from the library here in the
House. When The Ridings School went into special measures there
were 300 national press articles on the circumstances which had
led to that. One could quite reasonably have assumed that it was
the end of civilisation as we knew it. When The Ridings came out
of special measures and was turned around by a quite brilliant
head and her staff, there were a total of seven articles, of which
five were connected to the CBE that the head teacher received
and only two were about the fact that the school had done this
miraculous turn around. Now you have to decide, gentlemen—
Charlotte Atkins
22. And ladies.
(Lord Puttnam) And ladies, whether you feel that is
an accurate balance and whether that accurately reflects society
and the real issues that are taking place at school. What is happening,
is that day in and day out in this country there are wonderful
miraculous stories which just never, ever get any attention. There
was a story last week on a local radio station about a child in
Devon who had been discovered to be quite profoundly deaf and
the decision had been made by the local authority to move the
child to a special school. The rest of the class decided what
they would prefer to learn signing so the child could stay on
in the class with them. I did not see it reported in the national
press at all. If we had a story like that every day, every single
day, because stories like that happen every single day, then possibly
the entire perception of the teaching profession and society at
large would be improved.
Charlotte Atkins: It was reported somewhere.
Chairman
23. It was reported in one newspaper.
(Lord Puttnam) Was it? Thank you, I am delighted.
What I am saying is there are stories like that every single day.
One of the things that Carol and I have been talking about is
to make sure we do supply the media with those stories. Let them
become aware of and report these remarkable things that are occurring
day in and day out.
Mr St Aubyn
24. Lord Puttnam, your remarks about the press
sound a little bit like Her Majesty's Chief Inspector who I think
also feels that the extreme view is sometimes put across. Do you
think there is a danger in your criticisms of Ofsted you have
picked up perhaps the sensational reporting of Ofsted's doing
and not focused on the hard work going on in many schools which
has led in many people's view to a steady increase in the standards
in those schools?
(Lord Puttnam) My criticism of Ofsted was, and always
has been, very measured. As I said, I am a huge admirer of Chris
Woodhead and the job he has done. I made one specific remark and
I hold by it and that got blown up as a headline "Puttnam
lashes Ofsted". I do not see it as lashing Ofsted, to indicate
that at some point, the tone of Ofsted's reports has to become
teacher supportive rather than teacher critical because the truth
is that 99 per cent of the reports are supportive. Ofsted are
to an extent as guilty as the media. There is this tendency all
the time to emphasise the bad when the bad is to be found in only
a tiny minority of cases.
25. Would you share a view, which I sense is
as much prevalent among the teacher unions today, that the way
to really resolve this problem, the three per cent who are really
in the wrong job, is to help them to find another job and not
to protect them or to think that 97 per cent are doing best by
them or by the schools they are in by trying to persuade them
to carry on in teaching, in fact the best thing is to try and
find ways to give them alternative employment?
(Lord Puttnam) I think Carol should come in on this.
I would have thought, put in very crude terms, one would have
hoped that one and a half per cent of that three per cent could
be retrained, supported and helped and brought back in and that
one and a half per cent possibly should not. That may be wrong,
there may be only half a per cent that can be brought back in.
Certainly attempts should be made. I do not think you should just
assume that you lop three per cent off and wave goodbye to them.
At the moment I do not think there is a mechanism in place to
do that.
(Ms Adams) From visiting many hundreds of schools
I think the teachers who are not able to perform perhaps as well
as we would like, many of them have not been able to have the
help and support that they need for various reasons. It may be
difficult to provide exactly the right kind of help and support,
maybe the management of the school has not been able to do it,
maybe there have not been the resources to do it, maybe it has
not been recognised. One of the things I think the Council want
to do is to make sure that we ensure that every teacher has the
opportunity to develop, to become remotivated. I think that will
vastly reduce any notional figure of three per cent.
26. Do you think there is a slight contradiction
in the approach in the case of these teachers? The attitude is
we should give them time to come up to par, and I have some sympathy
with that point of view, and the attitude of those who want to
enter the profession where we actually seem to hold them back
from getting involved in the classroom just in case they might
not be giving an absolutely stellar performance from day one.
(Lord Puttnam) I have tried to say, I think the entry
process into the profession has not been as intelligent as it
could be. It has all too often been also a series of emergencies.
One of the fascinating things about going back through all those
earlier education debates of this century is that you see time
and time and time again the same crisis re-emerging. There was
a screaming need at the end of the First World War for 16,000
additional teachers, they only ever found 9,000. There was a long
debate in the House of Commons about this crisis. I do not think
we have ever quite got it right. We were also quite wrong in thinking
that there was a golden era of Mr Chips in which everything was
wonderful. There never was a Mr Chips era, in fact the closest
we ever came to it, quite seriously, was the brief period the
Chairman and I shared in the first five years of the 1950s. That
was probably as good as it ever got. We were blessed to be at
school at that point. I think it has been something of a state
of permanent crisis. The tragedy that is at least for years and
years the profession carried significant status, not enough but
significant status and we have allowed that to slide, partly through
carelessness and partly by dropping the standards of entry at
one point below that at which they should have been acceptable.
Chairman
27. Lord Puttnam, taking one point there, blessed
if you were lucky enough to get through the 11 plus, things were
not quite so bright for the majority of people who did not get
through the 11 plus as you and I did. On the record, for you to
put it right, according to John Carvel you criticised the Chief
Inspector of Schools "for running a regime of intimidation
and terror instead of giving teachers support, optimism and affection".[2]
That was an accurate quote?
(Lord Puttnam) Is it not in quotes?
28. It is a quote from you.
(Lord Puttnam) No, from memory I think he is quoting
something I was reported to have said.
29. I see, right, okay. We gave you the chance
to put that on the record.
(Lord Puttnam) The truth is the criticism is very
specific. My support for Ofsted is very, very general. It is irritating
at times, and you have all experienced it, to find your remarks
either taken out of context or blown out of all proportion. It
was blown out of all proportion and I think that was what John
Carvel was referring to.
Mr St Aubyn
30. There is some talk you might take on a role
vis-a-vis lecturers teaching in further education colleges.
Now further education colleges have seen a great change in terms
of employment and more flexible employment. They have been able
to deliver a 30 per cent increase in the amount of courses they
give to their communities. Do you think there is a case to be
made for teachers to think in terms of offering greater flexibility
over their terms of employment perhaps in return also for some
improvement in the remuneration that they receive?
(Lord Puttnam) In the short term it is not an issue
we can address. We have not been given the remit to address it.
Frankly, Carol and I have more than enough problems getting the
GTC up and running in a manner that we can genuinely be proud
of. Parenthetically, personally, I think that sixth form colleges
and FE colleges have got very much the short end of the straw
over the last few years. I am an enormous fan, because I was educated
in FE. I happen to think also that FE colleges have a specific
role to play in the economy of the 21st century which I think
is quite unique. I am not sure that any of us, Government or the
nation generally, have really thought through how much we are
going to rely on the products of FE colleges in the next 20 years.
I would love to see a reassessment of the role of FE lecturers
and a reassessment and uprating of the role of sixth form colleges
generally but that is very much a personal view.
31. The lesson for teachers in our schools,
do you think they should be looking in terms of offering more
flexibility in their terms of employment perhaps in return for
a higher level remuneration which might address the problem we
were talking about of encouraging more people to enter the profession?
(Lord Puttnam) I hope this is not a cop out answer.
I think that if we could drive up the sense of professionalism
within the profession, things like that become a natural
consequence. I think once people regard themselves as serious
professionals, who are treated seriously, who are given a status
and feel good about their jobs, I think the rest of those rather
edgy and irritating things which happen on the fringes begin to
drop away. That is a statement of confidence I suppose.
Charlotte Atkins
32. Just for the record, flexibility in FE has
certainly not increased the salaries of FE lecturers who I think
have ended up being paid less than primary school teachers. So
that is not the way forward for schools. Could I ask you—along
the lines that Nick was asking about greater flexibility—obviously
as we are trying to recruit more staff then obviously other ways
of recruiting staff, maybe part time staff, job sharing and so
on comes on to the agenda. What I recently read in the NUT's Education
Journal, there was a heart felt plea from part time teachers
about their failure to access training, particularly in ICT. What
I want to ask you, given that part of the role of the GTC is to
advise on training, is how you can ensure that training is available
to all teachers, not just newly qualified teachers but those who
are part-time and also those who are returning to teaching, those
who are out of the workforce at the moment but coming back to
teaching?
(Lord Puttnam) I think we have given more though in
the short time we have been together to that than anything else,
I will ask Carol to respond.
(Ms Adams) Again, one of the things that we will be
developing in the coming months is a whole strategy on what the
GTC will want to consider in relation to professional development.
Clearly when the members are up and running in September, I think
that is one of the major areas they will want to address. We will
be doing research into teachers' views, we will be finding out
what is going on on the ground and I am well aware that there
are major issues for those who are not permanently or full time
in a school. One of the things we will have to find are some positive
ways forward in relation to accessing training for those teachers
both in terms of schools taking responsibility for all those who
work there but also having the resources and the wherewithal to
do it. That is very much on the agenda of things that the Council
will be asked to look at and come up with some positive proposals.
33. Will you be particularly looking at part
time teachers and people who will come back into the profession
after so many years?
(Ms Adams) They will be included, yes.
34. Also the role of training co-ordinators
within schools?
(Ms Adams) Yes.
35. Clearly they will prioritise maybe the full
time workforce rather than the part time staff.
(Ms Adams) Yes, I think we will be looking at coming
up with advice that is based on identifying needs in schools in
the profession and also examples of what is working very well.
Although there are problems, there are examples of excellent practice
in schools where training is provided for the whole staff where
there is a real sense of high motivation and everybody, technical
staff, non-teaching staff, part-timers, are involved in programmes
for continuous training. So we have lots of good practice to look
at and that is one of the things the Council will do.
36. I am glad you have mentioned the issue of
the whole staff team because very often when teachers and schools
talk about staff they actually mean teachers. I am pleased you
are embracing the whole of the school team rather than just teachers
themselves.
(Ms Adams) Indeed I think there is a real change.
There are some schools recognising that and that is something
we need to publicise very strongly.
Chairman
37. Can I direct this to you, Ms Adams, do you
not think when you see very good practice, that you have just
described, one of the problems is that although we might call
them beacons or we might call them whatever, not enough transparency
exists so that you bring other schools in, other teachers to look
at that best practice in operation? Some of the schools that we
visit really are in a very closed situation. It is very difficult
to get in and see the good practice they are obviously achieving
through excellent results and much else.
(Ms Adams) I very much agree with you. I think the
teaching profession has suffered from isolation. Fundamentally
it has been an isolated job in one's own classroom and beyond
that an isolated job in one's school. In fact not only is there
not enough sharing of good practice across schools there is by
far not enough sharing of good practice within schools where teachers
do not have time or systems have not been developed whereby colleagues
can work together. I think one of the major lessons that teachers
can tell us about development is that if you work with a colleague
and you actually teach together and discuss together and prepare
your lessons together, that is a developmental experience, that
leads to increased confidence and raised standards. I think to
date there has not actually been a body in the position of assisting
every teacher by accessing to them networks, contacts, examples
of good practice. One of the things I am already working on with
groups of teachers is how the GTC can do that through electronic
communication, through networks, through working throughout the
regions of the country, to actually put teachers in touch with
other teachers on those issues that they want to find out more
about and learn about and work on.
Mr O'Brien
38. This is a question for both Lord Puttnam
and Ms Adams and that is to whom do you see yourself accountable,
the teachers or the Secretary of State?
(Lord Puttnam) Teachers.
39. That applies equally to you, Ms Adams?
(Ms Adams) I think essentially, yes.
2 The Guardian 4 December 1999. Back
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