Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 39)
WEDNESDAY 15 MARCH 2000
MR CHRIS
WOODHEAD, MR
MIKE TOMLINSON
AND MR
DAVID TAYLOR
Mr Marsden
20. On the previous occasion when you appeared
before the Committee, Mr Woodhead, you talked about the issue
of pupil mobility. You said that it was an important issue and
that you were a strong supporter of it. On the issue of staff
mobility, do you think that there is a link between staff mobility
and low levels of achievement in schools?
(Mr Woodhead) Mike Tomlinson is shaking his head.
We do not have evidence to suggest that there is. I want to make
a personal observation, rather than one that is grounded in the
inspection evidence, that you can have two extreme situations,
neither of which is particularly positive: one, that there is
no mobility at all and you have a school in which staff have worked
for too long together, and the other, particularly inner city
schools where there are high levels of mobility so that children
do not experience from year to year, or even term to term any
continuity in their teachers. Each of those extremes, as common
sense suggests, is not a good thing.
21. You say that you have no evidence of that
and that it is your opinion, which I respect. Would it not be
a good idea for OFSTED to gather evidence on that?
(Mr Woodhead) Yes, I think it would be. We shall certainly
put our minds to how best to do that. Since our previous meeting
with the Committee we have been thinking about how we can try
to ensure that the inspectors understand the impact of pupil mobility
in coming to their judgments. I believe we are making progress
on that front. The issue you now raise is an important one and
we may be able to do something on that.
Chairman
22. Something that concerns some of us in terms
of progress in many schools is information technology in primary
and secondary schools. I have been involved in that for some years
and in relation to changing the culture of a school I once heard
a very charismatic professional in this area say that it is no
good having a "techie", but you have to change the culture
of a school fundamentally so that everyone in the school is included
from the dinner lady and the lollipop person to the head. Could
you comment on your concerns for that work on the teaching side
and in terms of the success side? Are we getting far enough quickly
enough with those sorts of skills?
(Mr Woodhead) The first thing I want to say is a caveat,
but I do not want the caveat to be interpreted as a Luddite rejection.
23. Especially as I am an MP from Huddersfield
from where Ludd came.
(Mr Woodhead) The computer is a means to an end and
we should never see it as an end in itself. We worry about some
classrooms where people spend considerable amounts of time on
computers, but they do not use the computers to further their
learning. It is a distraction rather than a tool that is improving
matters. However, to be more positive, we are seeing more information
and computer technology in schools and that is obviously a good
thing. The challenge now, as we see it, is to make sure that the
teachers themselves are confident with regard to using the new
technologies and are using the technologies to enhance learning
in a way that is vital. I think the challenge, as I said last
year, is more professional development for teachers. Much is being
done at the moment through various initiatives, but we are not
there yet. We must continue the efforts and redouble them.
(Mr Taylor) In the report we distinguish between information
technology as a National Curriculum subject and the use of information
and communication technology as a support across the curriculum.
The low grades are given for the formal teaching of information
technology according to the criteria in the National Curriculum.
That means that there are two things that we need to look at.
In both of them, as Chris has said, it comes down to the question
of teacher confidence and competence. We are dealing with this
very atypical situation where the bulk of teachers often feel
less well skilled than some of the pupils whom they teach. That
is a fundamentally difficult position for teachers to find themselves
in because it challenges them. Your point about culture is relevant
here. We are saying that the culture of the school has to be changed
such that teachers can live with the fact that their skills may
not be as developed, but in addition to that they have the matter
of working out exactly what it is that the tool can do in teaching
across a range of subjects. The practice is still very embryonic
in certain subjects. There is a strong commitment in initial teacher
training to information and communication technology being used
to service all subjects. That can lead to a certain artificiality
where people drag in computers by the scruff of the neck. We are
not talking about that. There is a big learning process throughout
education in working out exactly what we think this creature is.
There is a shift from using information technology as a discrete
body of learning to using the whole range of technologies. That
does not just mean using computers for wordprocessing but bringing
the whole interactive nature of that type of support naturally
and sensibly into learning in a way in which teachers feel confident
that they can manage both because of their own skills and the
facilities to use those skills. Where there is a single, stand-alone
computer in the corner of the room its integration into the learning
process is far less effective than when the whole thing has been
thought through. On the point about taking forward information
technology, there is a huge job still to be done. The resource
input is not yet finding its way through to the battle of hearts
and minds so that teachers feel that they have that level of comfort
and confidence in what they are doing with the technology.
Mr Marsden
24. Mr Woodhead, I want to pick you up on the
inspection comments that you make in your annual report about
the National Curriculum and I want to focus on what you say about
history. In the Lawrence inquiry Judge Macpherson recommended
that there should be changes to the National Curriculum aimed
at providing cultural diversity and preventing racism. He also
talked about the inspection by OFSTED including the implementation
of that. I take the subject of history because it is an area that
in a previous incarnation I knew something about. I note, with
interest, that in your annual report you say that almost all schools
meet the requirements of the National Curriculum in history although
some do not give sufficient emphasis to non-European history.
However, there is no discussion as to whether schools are meeting
that requirement, or will be able to meet the requirement of ethnic
diversity in teaching subjects like history. Are OFSTED inspectors
qualified to do what Judge Macpherson has asked them to do?
(Mr Woodhead) Yes, I am certain that they are. With
respect, these questions need to be put to the QCA and to the
Secretary of State with regard to the nature of the requirements
of the National Curriculum for history and other subjects. My
own view on the history National Curriculum Order is that it strikes
a pretty good balance between initiating young people into a proper
understanding of British culture and giving them the opportunity
to understand something of the history of the other cultures that
make up our multicultural society. Personally, I would not argue
that the National Curriculum Order needs in any significant way
to be revamped. With regard to the confidence of the inspector,
the inspector will understand the requirements of the Order and
will be able to come to a judgment on the extent to which the
children in the school that is being inspected have a proper exposure
to the totality of the curriculum.
25. In the light of the Lawrence inquiry and
the Macpherson recommendations, are you planning to give any particular
instructions or give any further training to your inspectors?
(Mr Tomlinson) Yes, we are. If you look at the revised
framework and the handbook that came into operation from January
this year you will see that both have been strengthened to deal
with the inclusion matters and to take on board what Macpherson
said. We are planning a further tranche of training later this
year for all inspectors to sensitise them further to such issues
and to give them further guidance. Yes, we are intending to do
more to help them further. That does not suggest that at the moment
they are not doing it. We are simply saying that there is a constant
need to keep ahead of the game in terms of what the inspectors
need to do the job.
26. You recognise that it is something on which
you need to give further instruction and assistance?
(Mr Tomlinson) Along with a whole range of things.
We have a programme that has to take on board, for example, inspectors
being briefed and helped on performance management.
27. With respect, Mr Tomlinson, performance
management is an important issue, but it is not quite the burning
issue that the Lawrence inquiry put forward.
(Mr Tomlinson) I do not deny that. I am simply saying
that there is a tranche of matters on which we are doing more
training. Yes, we shall give further training to all inspectors.
It will be mandatory for all inspectors.
Helen Jones
28. In relation to the curriculum and some comments
in your report, in the chapter on primary schools you comment
on the fact that the achievement in writing is significantly below
that in reading, speaking and listening. I think it would be accepted
that teaching writing by normal specialist English teachers is
far more difficult than teaching some of the other skills. In
your view, how far is the lower achievement in writing due to
the lack of subject specialists in primary schools who are qualified
particularly in English?
(Mr Woodhead) Writing is the most difficult skill
in the English curriculum. Any of us who struggle to write anything,
even the noble professionals on my right and left, know that on
occasion it is difficult to argue logically! I am not surprised
that we find pupil progress in writing is lagging behind pupil
progress in reading. On the national literacy strategy, the training
offered to teachers has concentrated rightly on the first stages
of reading, but the emphasis is shifting towards training of how
to teach writing more effectively. I think we shall see more progress
because of that training. The fact that I am arguing for more
training and the importance of it suggests that I am agreeing
with you that in primary schools we need people who have as much
specialist knowledge and understanding of the teaching of literacy
in all its manifestations as we possibly can have.
29. Have you done any research into the relative
achievements of pupils who are taught by specialist English teachers,
those who have a first degree in English, as opposed to those
who have not?
(Mr Woodhead) To my knowledge I do not think we have.
Primary school teachers will have a main focus for their work,
but I do not think that there are that many people—I could
not put a figure on it—teaching in primary schools who have
a straight degree in English. I am not sure whether a straight
degree in English would help very much. It may be marginally better
than a straight degree in media studies.
30. Is that not something that you feel you
should look at? There is a whole debate about the relative effectiveness
of general and specialist teachers in primary schools. Has OFSTED
looked at that in any detail?
(Mr Tomlinson) I think some years ago we issued a
report.
(Mr Woodhead) Yes. We have looked at that, but we
may look at it again. I am not really saying that that is professional
understanding. It is common sense that the ability of the teacher
to teach depends, first and foremost, on his or her personal security
with regard to the subject matter and knowledge and understanding
of the subject that he or she is to teach. If I were to teach
music, and I am not particularly musical, I would feel very insecure.
My musical teaching, whatever my generic qualities as a teacher,
would not be very good. We always argue that the subject knowledge
is critical. It may well be that the time is right for us to take
a particular look at the expertise, knowledge and understanding
of primary school teachers with regard to literacy in general
and writing in particular.
(Mr Taylor) On the teacher training aspect, I believe
we would all recognise that that is something that has to grow
from the bottom up. If we do not get it right when teachers come
into primary schools then there will be problems for many years.
The changes in the nature of teacher training requirements in
English for all teachers, but particularly for those who have
English as a specialism, which is a large proportion, are such
that teachers should come into schools with the kind of range
of skills to teach writing effectively, whether or not their formal
specialism is English. At the moment that is not so. The proportion
of new teachers receiving only a grade three or worse for their
subject knowledge in English is worse in that aspect than in any
other. We have highlighted that as a particular problem within
teacher training, although the teacher training curriculum and
standards have gone a long way towards providing the framework
that ought to improve things in time. There is still a lot to
be done.
Helen Jones
31. Are you suggesting that the entry requirements
for teacher training courses ought to be higher than they are?
(Mr Woodhead) There is always a fine political judgment
to be taken in regard to teacher recruitment on the one hand—supply
and demand—and the proper expectations that we have of our
teachers. Standing independent of that difficult judgment, it
is common sense that we want teachers who are really confident,
intellectually secure, enthusiastic, able and who have the highest
possible standards.
Mr St Aubyn
32. Quite rightly, throughout the report you
highlight the problems of failure, in particular the problems
of schools that have failed their second inspection. In your report
you say that problems begin when school improvement spawns a plethora
of ineffective and often unwelcome initiatives. In a week when
three out of 10 head teachers appointed under the Fresh Start
scheme have indicated that they are to leave their posts and today
the Government have announced that they will revive the idea of
city technology colleges, which initiatives do you think are most
likely to help the problem of failing schools? Do you think they
are likely in almost all cases to involve the private sector,
by which I include voluntary and charitable bodies?
(Mr Woodhead) I take a very bottom-up approach to
school improvement. The way forward must be to ensure that we
have more schools like Thomas Telford City Technology College,
which I visited the other month. That is a very successful school.
The secret of creating those schools is essentially making sure
that we have the right people leading them and working within
them. But every initiative, to my mind, ought to be focused on
getting the right people on the ground and making sure that the
head teacher and the management in those schools run a very tight
ship indeed. To me that basic management determination is the
key, rather than, as I put it rather rudely, a lot of the rhetoric
of school improvement that in some cases can amount to little
more than hot air. I do not know the details of today's announcement,
so I am not in a position to comment on that, but if it means
trying to find new ways of creating self-confident schools that
are staffed with the best teachers and resourced to the highest
possible level—I accept that schools working in these very
difficult circumstances need higher levels of resources than others—I
would applaud the initiative.
33. You are saying that it is vital to get the
right support mechanism in order to turn round failing schools,
in particularly difficult circumstances?
(Mr Woodhead) Yes, but I would want to pause on the
phrase "support mechanism". Support mechanism obviously
suggests that there needs to be something beyond the school that
supports, that props up the school. My emphasis is on getting
it right within the school; getting the right resources and the
right management. The more successful you are in doing that, the
less support mechanism you will need. Having said that, if by
support mechanism you mean better liaison between social services,
police and all the other agencies that work behind the scenes,
that is very important. Talking to considerable numbers of inner
city head teachers across the country, one recurrent theme is
if only they could rely on better, more coherent, more integrated,
more joined-up work from the agencies their lives would be a lot
simpler and they would be able to focus their professional energies
and attention on what they are paid to do, namely teach children.
Chairman: We shall have to move on as we have
a lot to cover. I want to touch briefly on something that comes
out boldly in your annual report. That is the problem of what
seems to be a disjuncture between the primary school and the secondary
school. You home in particularly on lack of achievement between
the ages of 11 and 14. You single that out as somewhere where
we have to make a tremendous effort. That is something that impressed
me. In my own experience, I have seen that happen time and time
again.
Charlotte Atkins
34. I am interested in that. Do you have any
evidence about whether the transition is better in a middle school
system? In my experience I think there is a problem with year
eight in that it is seen as a gap year. I certainly would like
to see higher and further education getting much more involved
in that year and trying to encourage those young people in that-pre-exam
period to widen their horizons. Do you have any evidence on that
issue of whether that transition period is effectively dealt with
in the middle school system?
(Mr Woodhead) The short answer is no. We have not
looked at it as a specific issue.
(Mr Taylor) It is not included in the report, but
because some of us have raised exactly the same question, I asked
our analysts to look into the matter. They showed that there was
a different profile to the dip. In 11 to 16 or 18 schools the
dip tended to be in year eight and in the middle schools it tended
to be in year five, for example. We found that by year 13[2]
the standards and all the other measures that we were using came
out much the same. They cope with one particular problem but in
the course of it there were problems of transition at other stages.
Obviously one problem is year nine, when pupils move on after
the age of 13, the final year of the key stage. We would not be
able to draw any kind of instant recipe that middle schools provide
the better solution, but they seem to provide a better solution
to year eight.
35. Is OFSTED in favour of middle schools?
(Mr Taylor) Had the evidence said overwhelmingly that
middle schools did better by the age of 13, we would have wanted
to make that point clear.
36. You have no evidence on that?
(Mr Tomlinson) No. The only thing one can say is that
in recent times there has been a considerable rush to remove middle
schools by local education authorities through reorganisation
proposals. One can only assume that there is some evidence for
the reorganisation.
(Mr Woodhead) That is an issue, like grammar schools,
that is better left to the will of the local electorate.
Charlotte Atkins: My daughter attends a middle
school.
Chairman: We now turn to the issue of funding.
Charlotte Atkins
37. Mr Woodhead, you argue that the funding
in primary and secondary schools varies too much according to
where the schools are located. Being an MP for Staffordshire you
will appreciate that I agree with that comment. You have argued
that we need to have a "transparent and educationally defensible
mechanism" for ensuring an even distribution of funds. Can
you suggest such a mechanism? What sort of mechanism are you looking
at?
(Mr Woodhead) Obviously I am not in a position to
give you any detailed account of what a national funding formula
would look like, but I think that we need a national funding formula.
I am arguing that the Government should look very hard at this.
Some work is being carried out, but one has only to travel around
the country to understand the point. It does not just affect Staffordshire.
The other week I was in Wakefield visiting a junior school and
if it were two miles further down the road it would have £50,000
more in its budget. There are too many anomalies to allow the
situation to continue. It means looking long term because no government
could achieve the changes needed overnight, but it is something
that should be firmly on the agenda.
38. The key problem of that formula is that
it would have an accumulative impact either to the disadvantage
or advantage of a particular school. Any formula you come up with
would take money away from particular areas.
(Mr Woodhead) That is why I say it has to be a long-term
proposition. Politically I do not see that a government could
be in the position of taking the money away. If anything, it needs
levelling up, but that would be expensive.
39. If you were to introduce a floor below which
certain authorities would not fall, by narrowing the range from
top to bottom that would not be as expensive?
(Mr Woodhead) That could be a positive step in the
right direction.
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