Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 111)
WEDNESDAY 15 MARCH 2000
MR CHRIS
WOODHEAD, MR
MIKE TOMLINSON
AND MR
DAVID TAYLOR
Mr Marsden
100. Just a brief question on this whole issue
of LEAs, Mr Woodhead. In your Report you have been quite critical
of inspections and advice services of the LEAs. You said, "The
LEAs fail to focus efforts on schools which need support. It makes
no sense whatsoever for LEAs to replicate OFSTED's work."
On previous occasions you have come before this Committee and
said that it is not the role of OFSTED to offer advice, indeed,
when we discussed the management consultancy model, as opposed
to audits model, you explicitly rejected the formula. How do you
square-up those two statements?
(Mr Woodhead) There is no inconsistency at all. I
am saying that the LEA has a job and OFSTED has a job. To repeat
what I said before, the job of OFSTED is to inspect and to come
to an external judgment on the strengths and weaknesses of the
school. The job of the local education authority is to offer support
to those schools post-inspection that need support.
101. In that case, why in your Report, in this
specific context of criticising the inspections and the advice
teams, does it say "It makes no sense whatsoever for LEAs
to replicate OFSTED's work." Surely there is a suggestion
there that what the LEAs are doing is exactly the same as OFSTED,
which you just denied?
(Mr Woodhead) The weak LEA will replicate OFSTED's
work in the sense that it visits all schools, there is no differentiated
approach to try to establish the strength and weaknesses of the
school's performance, which is precisely what we are going to
do. Then post-inspection the weak LEA will fail to target resource
on those schools where there is maximum need.
102. You were not criticising their role as
advisers?
(Mr Tomlinson) What we have said consistently is that
it is the case in a number of local authorities. In a blanket
way they are doing pre-OFSTED inspections of the schools in advance
of the OFSTED inspection. That was diverting very important resources
into that activity as distinct from where it might otherwise be.
In many cases it was unnecessary and adding to the pressures in
the school.
103. I am glad you said that. The evidence or
the memorandum that was submitted to the Committee by the Local
Government Association before this meeting was particularly critical
of what they perceive to be that view. I am glad you make that
clear.
(Mr Woodhead) The Local Government memorandum was
saying that they disagreed with the Government's view and my view
that local authorities should not visit all schools prior to inspection
on a continuous basis. There is a disagreement about what the
local authorities should do. I think that my view is closer to
David Blunkett's and Tony Blair's than the LGA's.
Gordon Marsden
104. That is not quite what the LGA said but
we will have to leave it there.
Chairman: Very quickly, I am going to call Valerie
for a very quick question.
Valerie Davey
105. A crucial element of any LEA is the Committee,
the elected members. Where you have been critical of an authority
that has laid some criticism on Committee members how are we going
to ensure that that democratic accountability remains within regional,
county—whatever the LEA area is—given the concerns
that you have?
(Mr Woodhead) I do not know is the short answer. It
is not for me to speculate on it.
Dr Harris
106. LEAs are unique amongst the things you
inspect, all of them are unique in their own way, in respect of
being directly democratically accountable to the local electorate.
Indeed on middle schools you said, "Perhaps it is best to
leave it to the will of the local electorate". I share that
view with you. Do you find that that democratic accountability,
that responsiveness that they presumably seek to have to local
needs cuts across some of areas that you or central government
might like to see happen at LEA level?
(Mr Woodhead) No, I do not.
107. You do not perceive any clash?
(Mr Woodhead) I do not think we have evidence of a
clash. Most local electorates want their children to learn to
read, so does the Government.
Dr Harris: You would not expect your inspectors
to make comments on the political nature of the control rather
than the performance of the council or the council as a whole?
Chairman: Where are you going on this?
Dr Harris
108. In the inspection of Oxfordshire it said
that "Oxfordshire County Council has been a hung council
since 1985 and no party has been in overall control. It is clear
that the lack of consensus on some important issues", in
the same paragraph, "in the Education Committee has until
very recently impeded the development of the coherent medium and
long-term strategy and caused damaging delays in areas such as
review and the three-tier system." That is in the City of
Oxford. The point about that is there was a three party agreement
there, that if you try to close middle schools when they could
opt out, they would opt out and you would not achieve anything.
That is why there was a three party agreement to wait. The implication
of the report is that it should not be hung, it should go back
to Conservative control or the second largest party, the Liberal
Democrats, should really be in control. That would deliver in
itself benefits, the report seems to say.
(Mr Woodhead) It seems on this particular issue—the
middle school closure or not—there was remarkable consensus
achieved and I congratulate the good councillors of Oxfordshire
on that. There are others issues where perhaps the resolution
was not as clear and decisions were not taken. My own experience,
to be anecdotal, of working in authorities is that it is quite
difficult to get the elected members to act with one voice on
difficult issues.
109. That has significant implications but what
you are saying there is there is an advantage per se in
ensuring there is one party with overall control, whatever that
party. Perhaps in your own organisation you are used to a pretty
much down-the-line, dictatorial approach.
(Mr Woodhead) Dictatorial?
110. Yes, there not being a propensity to seek
consensus. In election after election, to the regret of each county
group leader in Oxfordshire and other political authorities, a
no overall control council has been returned and, perhaps, that
is what local people want. Your criticism of that does seem to
go against, which was my first point, the wishes of the local
people.
(Mr Tomlinson) The logic falls down. It is not a case
of what the political balance of the council or the Committee
is at all. The question is, do they together make decisions based
upon evidence and fact which are in the best interests of their
schools? If that is so, then really the question of whether they
are hung or not hung is irrelevant.
111. Precisely.
(Mr Tomlinson) The point you are making is that it
means that all councils should never be hung. That is not logical
at all.
Chairman: I am drawing proceedings to a close.
I think we have had a very full and a valuable session. Mr Woodhead,
Mr Taylor and Mr Tomlinson, I thank you for your attendance. I
value this contribution you have made to our proceedings, we have
learned a lot and we found it very useful. We look forward to
working with you in the future. In particular I remind you we
are in the process of looking at standards, disadvantage and opportunity.
We do want to work with you because, as you say, you have a body
of knowledge we want to draw on to make sure we write a very good
report in that regard. We look forward to seeing you in October.
Thank you for your attendance.
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