Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 269)
WEDNESDAY 24 MAY 2000
MS ANNE-MARIE
GRAHAM, MS
MARION EAST
AND MS
ZENA BRABAZON
260. Can I just ask about training. Primary
teachers are not trained to deal with children of five.
(Ms Graham) We had a wonderful period when there were
Early Years teachers coming out of teacher training having had
a significant element of child development training as part of
that system, which is now no more, and I think that is sadly lacking.
Many primary school teachers develop their understanding of Early
Years largely through in-service training and going to external
events, reading and so on, and there is a great hunger for that
training and knowledge. It obviously makes sense for it to be
part of their initial training. We talked earlier about the huge
gap between the initial training that teachers get compared to
other people who work with children, the length of time, the point
at which they have that, and so on. So certainly I would like
to see a stronger element of child development in initial teacher
training, because I think knowing how children learn has to be
the basis of all education for teachers, not just to the Early
Years. I think that understanding ought to go right through.
Mr Marsden
261. Sure Start has been mentioned, and I am
particularly interested in that. I have a pilot on in my constituency.
As local authority early years co-ordinators, obviously you are
going to have a significant role in the developmental and managerial
aspects of Sure Start. I do not know whether any of you have Sure
Start in your area—you all have? Excellent. I am glad we
are working so fast. In that case, can we have a quick snapshot
from you? What have you observed so far that is distinctive about
Sure Start as opposed to what you put on your wish list of what
you are doing at the moment, and how successful do you think it
is going to be? What are the challenges going to be in actually
bringing on board and involving parents in that activity? From
my observations in my constituency that is a great challenge.
(Ms Brabazon) I think involving parents is very difficult.
That does take an enormous amount of effort, and we have to build
up an enormous amount of trust that we are going to do what people
want and meet their wishes. We are developing that through a parent
group which is supporting the programme of consultation, but it
is taking time to develop. I do agree with you that that is critical,
but the real, major challenge of Sure Start is to change cultural
behaviour. I do not think Sure Start will work unless people change
the way they work. That is what it is really about. It is about
re-shaping services, and it is very important with Sure Start's
re-shaping, when we are working with Health and Education and
Social Services and the voluntary sector and all the other partners,
that people change the way they do what they do, because you are
supposed to be doing it differently, in order to deliver outcomes.
Part of that is about working with parents and hearing what people
say. It is about employing people. You call them gifted amateurs.
In Sure Start the pivotal thing is the Sure Start visitors, and
those teams have health visitors, speech therapists, midwives
and so on, but also a team of local people who will reflect the
cultures of the very many communities in the area. You have to
make sure that the Sure Start visitors can communicate with people,
with parents, translate that back, make that bridge between many
cultures in order for people to access us. I think the cultural
behaviours like "I am a health visitor and we are in Health
and we know this, and the social workers know that"—all
of that has to change.
262. So it is delivering joined up government
practically on the ground.
(Ms Brabazon) Yes, and to do that people have to confront
their own ways of working, their own prejudices and their own
behaviours, because everyone in Education thinks education is
the most important, social workers think that is the most important,
and we have to change those balances, and that is very difficult.
The next thing, if I might say, is that you then have to translate
that over into everybody else's practice, otherwise Sure Start
will be one more marginalised regeneration project, and it cannot
be that; it has to be owned very widely.
263. That is very helpful. Any other quick observations?
(Ms East) We are just in the second wave, so we do
not have our delivery plan written yet. It has actually thrown
up a whole range of wonderful discussions and debates about what
services should be provided for people. We also decided to have
a separate parents' forum after parents felt disempowered by working
alongside some of the professionals in some of the agencies. So
there is a parents' forum, a stakeholders' meeting, a Sure Start
board and a sponsor group, and we all send representation to each
of these groups. But it was one mechanism we could find for ensuring
that parents really did have a say.
264. Was there a slight feeling that missionaries
were being sent out into enemy territory?
(Ms East) A bit like that, yes.
Charlotte Atkins
265. As local authority practitioners, I particularly
want to know what you feel the Early Years Development and Childcare
Partnerships bring to the whole project and how open they are
to involvement from just outside parents or outside governors,
how they operate in your patches.
(Ms Graham) Working in partnership is something we
all would agree we believe in. We do not just do it because we
have to now. We believe in it, and we have done it for a long
time actually. I think all of us here have worked with the other
sectors, we have had things like Early Years forums with all the
different provider groups and so on. So the partnership's being
required is fine, and it is a very positive move, and given the
nature of Early Years Development in this country and the different
sectors' strengths, it is absolutely essential for the sake of
children and families that we do work in partnership. They began
with some difficulties because they began just after the vouchers
period and the beginning of funding for four-year olds, and in
actual fact what you had was competition for four-year olds, and
the only funding that appeared to be coming at that time was that
money, so in fact you were in competition for four-year old bums
on seats, to put it crudely. That was not an easy way to start
off this new partnership, and I think that created some hiccups.
But I think most of us have worked through that. The difficulties
now are the sheer amount of work that is involved in it, when
you are asking people who largely come in their spare time outside
local authority officers, and many local authority officers almost
do it in their spare time because they still have the same jobs
to do as well. There is a huge amount of work, and it is having
the effect of dulling the level of participation and involvement
that you might hope to see. So I think getting that work into
proportion, with the speed of change and the kind of demands that
are put on to it, there needs to be some understanding of that,
and I think there needs to be a recognition that the local authority
actually services, leads, coordinates, supports, acts as the diplomat—Zena
knows all the words.
266. But not dominate.
(Ms Graham) We try extremely hard not to dominate,
but actually, if you think that somebody has to take a strategic
overview of this area in order to ensure that there is an element
of fairness, that we do not leave out disadvantaged areas, that
we do actually think "Yes, it is all very well that market
forces are going to develop that, but what about that whole area
over there?" Who else, if you think of the partners involved,
is going to actually have that strategic overview, and whose job
is it to do that?
267. Are your meetings open to outsiders?
(Ms Graham) Yes.
268. So if anyone wants to make a presentation
to your committee they can do that?
(Ms Graham) Yes.
269. Is that the case for all three?
(Ms Graham) Yes. Can I just say, on parents, it is
very, very difficult to actually involve parents because of the
level at which it is on and the kind of debate that you have.
All of us are trying to build local neighbourhood forums which
have a structure of feeding into the central partnership, because
parents' view are diverse, they depend on where you live and a
whole range of other things, and you cannot have two parents who
represent all that.
Chairman: I am sorry but I am going to have
to call it to an end. We are running over time. I make myself
very unpopular. Can I thank you very much.
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