Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 439)
WEDNESDAY 21 JUNE 2000
SIR BRIAN
FENDER AND
MR BAHRAM
BEKHRADNIA
420. That focuses on what the universities do.
Does it also focus on the other side of the coin, what the schools
are doing with the universities?
(Mr Bekhradnia) It may. Yes, I think they will look
in and around what it is that is enabling this differential performance.
421. Have you any views about poor active schools,
schools that do not normally send pupils to university? Has there
been any great increase in interest from schools, especially given
the view that some students are preferring to stay within their
home area? Are there any examples of good practice by schools
in areas like my own, North Staffordshire, where there are low
staying-on rates at 16 and what work they have been doing with
FE colleges and universities?
(Sir Brian Fender) I think we have not got hard data
about that, but I know, for example, because I sat in for a year
on the widening participation project which involved FE colleges
in Staffordshire, that there those FE colleges appointed community
officers to go out into the more difficult communities and try
to develop interest in higher education. There is an example in
this case of a cluster of FE colleges taking the initiative.
Chairman: Sir Brian, rather than being accused
of dodging any of the issues I will speak plainly to you about
a concern of this Committee. You are a custodian of a great deal
of taxpayer's money that flows to higher education so it would
be wrong, as Chairman of this Committee, if I did not ask you.
We made a slight joke about the point that all degrees from all
universities in this country are good and I do not doubt that,
but would we be kidding ourselves if we did not think that there
was a ranking of universities, even in terms of the most desirable
ones, that the students applied to? The four of us all went to
one of the elite universities. I do not know if you went to elite
universities, perhaps you would like to inform the Committee?
Dr Harris
422. I disassociate myself from the term "elite".
(Sir Brian Fender) I am not rising to that either,
but I went to Imperial College.
(Mr Bekhradnia) I went to Oxford.
Chairman
423. What I am trying to tease out and what
I am trying to cut through is that you know that one of the things
that we are looking at is the fact that a very high percentage
of people educated in the private sector end up in those so called
elite universities. That is the truth of the matter and there
has been a great deal of public interest in the fact that these
universities do not recruit from a wide enough social range of
pupils from the state sector, and in some parts of the country,
hardly any at all. Does it cause you any concern, and if so, what
are we going to do about it?
(Sir Brian Fender) It does cause concern and I think
that those universities themselves would wish to widen their participation.
There are some interesting questions about effective admission
policies and there clearly are rather wide differences which need
to be examined. I am sure that Peter Lampl when he went and looked
at the practice in US universities, which were nearly all the
private ones as I understand it, if you take Stanford University,
which is a famous university, their admissions are done by a panel
of five academics who basically commit themselves to doing the
admissions policy for the whole of Stanford University.
424. They are professionally trained interviewers.
(Sir Brian Fender) They are certainly taking on that
responsibility for the whole university. You can see the advantage
of that, of meeting Stanford's goals, which are to have a collection
of under-graduates who cover a range of interests which are not
purely academics. With a centralised system like that you can
obviously achieve those goals, or you can go a long way to achieving
those goals. The British tendency has been to devolve admissions
responsibilities down to those who are primarily concerned with
the teaching. The advantage of that is that the relationship starts,
if you like, with the admissions, but it makes it more difficult
to introduce what you might call a centralised university.
Dr Harris
425. Peter Lampl agreed the proposition that
I put yesterday, that the discrepancy in the proportion of people
from under represented backgrounds or state schools was mainly
due in quantitative terms to a shortage of applications rather
than discrimination against them at the admissions stage. Would
you share that view?
(Sir Brian Fender) Yes I would.
Dr Harris: Having said that, at the admissions
stage some interesting questions arise. Firstly, if you accept
that proposition before I ask you about the admissions stage would
you say that statements from this Select Committee or politicians
in general or from yourselves out there to teachers at state schools
saying that you are going to be discriminated against, there is
old school tie and network at play will help or hinder the problem
given the problem of applications?
Chairman: I think, Sir Brian, you see that is
a very loaded question, but feel free to answer it.
Dr Harris
426. You always feel free, I hope.
(Sir Brian Fender) My understanding from visiting
many universities, which I do on a regular basis, is that all
are committed to widening participation. What we are about now
is a deeper study of the barriers to that participation than we
have had previously. That is entirely in line, in my view, with
the general objective of getting at all these talents and putting
that as a high objective. Obviously you need to look at all the
barriers and those include the admissions policies, they include
lack of championing about the opportunities, it is a whole range
of things that need to be tackled. I am not being evasive, but
there is not going to be a single simple solution to the question
of widening participation.
Chairman
427. No one is accusing you of being evasive.
What we are saying is that we have to confront some of these issues
head on. What research have you done into the reasons that many
qualified young people from the average comprehensive in our country
believe that it would not be a good thing for them to apply to
some of these universities—Imperial College, Oxford, Cambridge,
Bristol—you know what they are? Why is it that they have
the qualifications but they do not apply? What research have you
done to track back why that is the case?
(Sir Brian Fender) These are not just the only universities.
Students make choices for a variety of reasons. In the study of
what the factors were and what information students wanted to
have it was actually information about a course as well as some
general information about the institution. They were quite focused
on the particular academic programme they were going to follow
and that means, of course, that the number of targeted institutions
is much wider than the list that Peter Lampl has been using.
428. He uses the top 13, or what he calls the
top 13.
(Sir Brian Fender) I said right at the beginning that
aspiration is as important as progression and we need to look
at the different ways in which we can raise aspiration as well
as simply provide progression.
Dr Harris
429. Can I clarify my question? I will make
it less "loaded". Do you see the difficulty that if
you feel there is unfairness in the admissions procedure then
drawing attention to that rather than tackling it relatively quietly
may deter people in the short-term from applying, because no teacher
will want to send their students to what they think will be an
unfair process that will just lead to disappointment?
(Sir Brian Fender) I can see if it is was generally
perceived that the processes were unfair that would be a deterrent,
that is obvious enough.
Chairman
430. There surely is evidence that many students
out there do feel that they will not get a fair crack of the whip.
Do you believe that to be true, Sir Brian?
(Sir Brian Fender) There are bound to be some, but
the question is how many and how serious a deterrent that is.
Dr Harris
431. We accept that the admissions process and
any discrimination that exists there is a smaller factor than
the shortage of applications, though the two may be linked by
conception, but you said in paragraph 10 of your document; "There
is evidence that a given total of A level points students from
comprehensive schools perform better in terms of degree class
than pupils from private schools." I presume you mean pupils
who accept an offer from comprehensive schools. So if you have
10 with two Bs and a C from a comprehensive school in university
A and a similar number with the same qualifications from private
schools the average degree class will be greater in those universities.
That does suggest that there is failure to take into account,
certainly pre A level, the real degree getting potential at interview?
(Sir Brian Fender) Yes, I think all tutors are looking
for potential, if you like, at the outcome stage. What is that
student going to achieve? They want the best possible achievements
for those students. As those students apply from a variety of
different backgrounds what they have to do is make a judgment
from those different schooling backgrounds of what the likely
outcome is three years on.
432. But they are—
(Sir Brian Fender) Then you are in a position of trying
to judge that potential if you do not have the hard results.
Chairman
433. Peter Lampl said one of the real problems
with A level is that there is just that very narrow judgment,
which the research shows that a good candidate on a bad day can
slip to two As and a B and ruin their chances of getting into
many institutions and a less good student on a good day gets three
As, and what he is trying to research is; are there alternative
ways of judging the quality of students so that you are not dependent
on one not all that reliable criteria for entry into university?
I know you are doing research in this area. What is your view
on that?
(Sir Brian Fender) I think you want as much information
as you can get to help with this judgment about potential. If
we were talking about scholastic aptitude tests as another bit
of information which helps you make a judgment, I would be very
much in favour of it.
Dr Harris
434. If what you say is true in your evidence
what will be achieved on average by a comprehensive school student
with a B and two Cs compared with a private school educated person
with a B and two Cs is the corollary of saying that with equal
A level results the degree performances are better than the comprehensive
school student on average. On that basis should admissions tutors
in those places not be adding a grade for comprehensive, or at
least putting a lower barrier for comprehensive students or giving
them more credit, because the outcome of that on a population
basis will be more equitable if a degree result is what you are
after?
(Sir Brian Fender) My experience is that tutors do
that.
435. But not enough?
(Mr Bekhradnia) That same paragraph does say that
there is evidence of a number of different factors at work here
that actually makes the job of an admissions tutor extremely difficult.
That is one factor and it is one piece of research and, yes, there
is evidence that students with a given number of A level points
from a comprehensive school will achieve a better degree class
on average. I do not know how great that difference is, but there
is a difference there. We also know that A levels are actually
a good predictor of degree class, and we also know that there
is a close correlation between drop-out and previous education
attainment. An admissions tutor has to take all of these factors
into account and needs to then identify in an imaginative way
which students are most likely to succeed in his or her university
or college. It is not straightforward, but they ought to take
that evidence into account. That was first noted in the context
of Oxford and the implication there is that admissions tutors
ought to bear that in mind as they look at the A level scores
of students. There is evidence that they may do so. I have some
unpublished information here which I can let you have, not for
Oxford but for certain universities, that shows that there is
a higher percentage of state school pupils admitted the lower
the A level scores achieved. That is a factor that should be taken
into account.
436. I think we would like to see both the evidence
that you quote and that evidence, because the interesting thing
that you said is that Cambridge data that I have seen and that
has been published suggests that there they are actually in proportion,
that their state school pupils were generally all getting three
As or high scores and were generally in proportion to the number.
(Mr Bekhradnia) It is for the 13 combined.
437. Some evidence that I have seen, the Cambridge
report, where they have done this analysis suggests that they
have their 50 per cent state school educated who get 50 per cent
of the first, which suggests that they do not have that problem,
they still have the huge problem of inadequate application, but
it does suggest that in other universities, curiously, this additional
grade difference is not being taken into account sufficiently
if that evidence still pertains, despite what you have said. I
would like to ask finally, Mr Chairman, the question about the
stage at which applications should be made. We heard yesterday,
and I think you shared this view, that you could get much more
accurate predictions of performance after A levels if you had
applications post qualification. That presents practical difficulties
if it was going to be all done like that and produces financial
complications for those students not able to afford to take a
year or not having the opportunity to do so. Does HEFCE have a
view on whether that would indeed improve predicator rates and
improve the success of state school applicants?
(Sir Brian Fender) We do and, indeed, a few years
back we actually studied and promoted an investigation into whether
that was practical. In the end the practical differences which
you referred to seemed to be very difficult to overcome and they
are obvious enough that in order to get the results you have to
have the time, the people to make the decisions, you have to contract
the school year and that means less teachers to teach the six
forms, but we have no doubt at all that if one could produce a
system where the A level results were available before selection
that would be a much better system.
Dr Harris: Peter Lampl suggested in America
what universities are able to do very efficiently, rather than
send out people swanning off to cities, is actually write to students
who had got good SAT scores saying, "Apply to us", because
they get the scores and the addresses after they sit them. The
earliest results we have at the moment are GCSEs. Do you think
that there is merit in allowing universities access to the names
of people with good scores saying, "Apply to us" and
get competition in that way?
Chairman
438. Sir Brian is looking very worried about
that.
(Sir Brian Fender) No, I am not looking worried. These
GCSE results are available.
Dr Harris
439. I do not think universities like Oxford—
(Sir Brian Fender) There is nothing to stop universities
doing that now.
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