Examination of witnesses (Questions 448
- 459)
TUESDAY 27 JUNE 2000
PROFESSOR CHRIS
GREEN OBE, DR
PETER JOHNSTON,
MR JOHN
WALLACE, DR
ALAN CLARK
and MR ROBERT
FOX
Chairman
448. May I welcome you, the Four Counties Group,
Chris Green and team. Who is the extra witness whom we were not
expecting?
(Professor Green) Dr Alan Clark.
449. Alan, welcome indeed. Chris, it is nice
that your Group responded to our invitation so quickly. We will
not beat around the bush. Could you introduce your team and make
an opening statement.
(Professor Green) I would like to thank you for the
invitation. As you say, it is fairly short notice but we feel
confident that we can make a contribution to what has been said.
I have a brief prepared statement. As you will be aware, we represent
the Four Counties Widening Participation Group. Just to make it
clear to you, this is all the higher education institutions in
the four counties of Cambridgeshire, Essex, Norfolk and Suffolk.
That is, in total, eight institutions. We have been working together
closely, particularly as a result of a grant received from HEFCE
in January 1999, and renewed again this year. The full membership
is as follows: Anglia Polytechnic University, University of Cambridge,
University of East Anglia, University of Essex, Homerton College,
Norwich School of Art and Design, Open University, and Writtle
College. We have officer membership from HEFCE, FEFC and the Government
office in the region. I am from Anglia Polytechnic University
and am Chair of the Four Counties Group, and I am joined this
afternoon by a small number of my colleagues: Dr Alan Clark from
the University of Cambridge and Dr Peter Johnston from the University
of Essex, both of whom are members of the steering group. On my
right is Mr John Wallace, who is Principal of Thurrock College
in Essex. It was that college which featured in the Independent
article last Monday week. It represents also another important
constituency of our work, namely the joint collaboration with
colleges of further education in a number of projects, to address
the issue of increasing the capacity in the region for higher
education. The fifth member of the team is Mr Robert Fox, who
is an administrative officer for the Four Counties Group. There
are other members in the public gallery supporting this project.
We have already submitted to the chair, with the consent of HEFCE,
a copy of the report on last year's research, which was published
a few weeks ago. We have copies for members of the sub-Committee.
Additionally, we have given you a copy of the report which appeared
in the Independent on Monday 19 June, and a sample report
and editorial from one of a number of regional numbers that have
also interviewed me during the last week. That is the East
Anglian Daily Times. I should also like you to be aware that
the report in the Times Higher Education Supplement on
Friday 23 June does not represent accurately the substance of
the interview I gave. We are making contact with the publication
to ensure that certain errors are corrected, but I should like
to place on record that the inference which might be drawn from
the report, that colleagues in two of the universities named are
in some way not addressing the issue of widening participation,
is totally unfounded. They are actively involved, as are all the
partners, in addressing what we see as a major concern for our
region. Given the intense interest that has been generated recently
about so-called elitism of some universities, it would be unfortunate
if such an unfounded charge were to be levelled at the partners
in our consortium as a result of inappropriate and simplified
reporting. Those are my opening remarks.
450. May I ask you to expand on that by whichever
member of the team is appropriate, and to give us a thumb-nail
sketch of your research projects and its main findings.
(Professor Green) We are going to share out answers.
We know time is very, very short. In the document you have in
front of you, this represents something like eight months of research.
You have to understand that we started with a group of higher
education institutions that had some contact with each other.
One of the purposes of the project last year was not only to bring
those universities together, but also to look at ways in which
higher education capacity could be actually built up in our region.
It is important, Chair, to stress that the eastern region has
the lowest participation rate in England. That is a very serious
issue for us. Year on year it is the worst performing region.
You will want to ask us questions about that. We are also one
of the net exporters in terms of more young people leaving the
region, and we are the highest net exporter of young people into
other universities and higher education institutions. One of the
things that we felt we had to do, by way of opening, was to try
and make sense of some of the questions facing the universities—not
least of which is that we live in an area where there are mixed
urban areas with very high deprivation factors and a large rural
element as well. About the time we started last year, there was
a considerable amount of interest being shown by Government departments
and indeed others in metropolitan areas. We felt we wanted to
understand too whether there were rural issues which affected
low participation. Also, we wanted to know where the low participation
areas were. We have devised a system of mapping which you will
see in there. I will not go into that but it is basically down
to ward level, using an indices which may not be the best in the
world, but it is interesting that other participation schemes,
like the University of Surrey, have adopted this as a method of
recording data to see where the efforts should be put. Last year
was gathering data, analysing, collating it, and we had a dissemination
conference in February 2000. The work we are doing this year,
which I hope you will come to, is more mapping, including Hertfordshire
and Bedfordshire, but principally outcome based projects which
are designed to encourage more people to become involved in higher
education. The actual research itself showed a number of things.
It challenged our assumptions that the rural areas would show
the greatest number of what we called "cold spots"—and
the definition of "cold spots" is in the document -
in fact, there were two hot spots in the whole of the region and
both of them were rural areas. It also challenged assumptions
that where there is a higher education institution, it necessarily
follows that there will be high participation in higher education.
That is one of the things that obviously some newspapers have
picked up because two of the colder spots in the region were Norwich
and Colchester. I also have to say that Cambridge, where Cambridge
University and Anglia Polytechnic University have campuses, was
not a hot spot. It varies from year to year. This year we have
a second year. We are looking at a time sequence because obviously
any one year may be atypical. We also undertook qualitative work
as well with focus panels of youngsters, their parents, teachers,
governors, and also the Careers Services. That is documented in
the research that you have. A number of interesting things came
out of that. I think probably the two for me—and other colleagues
may have other views about this—which are particularly interesting,
was that for many of them in the region the issue of higher education
was not one that they could not afford it. It was that they just
were not interested in it. They could not see the relevance of
it for them. Secondly—and I think this is also important—when
many of them were questioned about combining part-time study with
employment, they also said this was not their preferred mode.
If that were to be taken to its logical extension, that raises
all sorts of fundamental questions about foundation degrees and
so on, which obviously are precisely there, trying to combine
part-time study with employment. So none of these things came
out of the sample.
451. So they were not interested in any sort
of education training, let alone HE, but FE as well?
(Professor Green) A substantial proportion of them
were not. Now I think you have to be very careful because it varied
between sample and sample. We did not go into every district and
much of that detail would be in the report. Those are the headlines
but there may be other points that colleagues want to add.
452. Anybody want to add to that? No? Could
you pull out for us then one of the main reasons you believe stimulates
a young person to decide to go on to HE. Is the single most important
factor something Brian Jackson discovered a hell of a long time
ago in his research in my own constituency, that it all depends
on mum or the parents, or can we go on further than that? What
are the main reasons why someone does decide, even if he or she
come from an otherwise unlikely background?
(Professor Green) We identified five major factors
of the high participatory areas. Obviously affluence. We tried
to link this to deprivation indices but I have to say that there
is not a straight correlation between them so one has to be careful
about that. Those communities, we found, were often more outward
looking. There was a history of participation in education. There
was greater expectation of the parents for their youngsters. A
history of culture of learning. A willingness not to be constrained
by geographical factors. They were willing to move. Also, well
informed, proactive, aware students. So there were good links
between those schools and higher education institutions. It was
informing themselves and the point you made, Chairman, about the
role of parents. One of the things on which we made a decision
last year was that if we were going to get into projects—and
many of our projects are concerned with mature students, returners
and so on—but if we were going to get into the widening
participation at the school age, we had to work as young as possible
within the funding that was made available to us. That is an issue
that I hope somebody will raise this afternoon.
Charlotte Atkins
453. I would like to come in on that because
my concern is that year eight, 12 or 13 year-olds, is often perceived—you
have a system working at 11 entry in the high school or middle
school system—as a bit of a gap year. It is a year where
sometimes academic progress is not made. Have you any examples
of institutions which look to intervene at that age, or indeed
even younger, to try to counter their non-traditional background?
(Professor Green) John represents a learning partnership
where this is substantially happening.
(Mr Wallace) If I can answer that, Chairman. Yes,
we are starting in Thurrock, as in six or seven areas in the Four
Counties region, an extension of the Children's University Scheme,
which first started in Birmingham some years ago. That intervenes
precisely at year eight. It takes students from local schools
and in Thurrock, which is obviously the patch I know, four local
schools out of the ten have all agreed unanimously, by the ten
heads, to send a small cohort of year eight pupils for a three-day
block: one day at the local sixth-form college, one day at the
FE college, and then one day at the higher education experience.
They go through all sorts of hopefully exciting and interesting
experiences there, run by the staff of the colleges and by the
HE institutions. Then we keep in touch with them through years
9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. One of the critical points is that we also
engage parents in that three-day block activity because that clearly
is felt to be an important aspect. We do not know the results
yet because we are only just getting involved but the project
recognises the importance of catching them earlier, which is what
you said more eloquently, the gap year.
454. Because the other issue is the issue of
summer schools. I feel very often that summer schools are pitched
at maths master classes type of summer school rather than pitching
it at the middling group, who would certainly be capable of going
to university but perhaps lack encouragement.
(Professor Green) May I add something to what John
has said. The pilot for this ran in Lowestoft last year. We made
a deliberate decision that it would not be based on a summer school
model. It was a continuity of experience with an institution.
In this case we made a decision that no one single university
should be involved. There are at least two universities involved
in each scheme. We are not out to get those youngsters into our
particular institutions. There are enough youngsters there to
satisfy everyone, should that be the case. Secondly, that the
parent should be involved, as the schools are involved, in project
work. It was on going project work. That has happened again this
year. To put flesh to the question you asked, last week we had
students from Lowestoft who during their three days, one of which
was spent on the university campus with their parents, did some
creative writing. They video conferenced that and were critiqued
by staff in the university by video conferencing. Put it to music.
Put it down on a power point presentation, as a visual presentation,
which they gave at a presentation on the third day. Each of the
schemes are slightly different. That work will continue. I should
also add that the funding for that this year is coming from HEFCE.
Last year we found the money. But HEFCE realised that if they
are going to address the widening participation issue—and
obviously I cannot answer for HEFCE, I know you have seen Sir
Brian Fender already—they have got to accept that there
is no quick fix at years 12 and 13. We have to work further on.
So it has made a commitment with our group, who have a three-year
life span, to work with groups who have a five-year span.
455. HEFCE would not give us any examples of
good practice. It is really nice to have some examples given to
us. Maybe you could give us some more examples of these sorts
of projects or slightly different projects where we are widening
access because, as I say, HEFCE were very reluctant—in fact,
totally refused—to give us any examples and did not want
to name any universities. That was not helpful, to put it mildly,
and obviously what we want to try to do is to search out best
practice, whether it be in terms of looking at more traditional
students or going down the age scale. I am grateful that you have
managed to come up with some but obviously we would like to look
at further examples as well.
(Dr Johnston) Could I offer the following observation.
There was a major study before the HEFCE allocations were awarded,
which was to try and encourage universities to benefit from good
practice elsewhere. The summer school model, which I analysed
in its various formats - as a Scotsman I know as it operated in
Scotland—it can be ten weeks or three days, it is a question
of resourcing, but in fact there was detail which was provided
in a project partly funded by HEFCE; so it is just a matter of
whoever you saw. There has been a study. But what we have been
trying to do is to make the best use of resources we have, so
we have shared good practice amongst ourselves. We have informed
ourselves of the good practice elsewhere. Also, the point I wanted
to make as a supplementary, as a follow-up, was that we have a
mentoring scheme as well running alongside the event. So the event
gets people involved but then you have to keep them involved.
Therefore, across our consortium we are developing a mentoring
scheme for students for year nine and upwards, students who are
drawn into this scheme.
Mr Marsden
456. Could I pursue the issue which you touched
on in your opening statement, Chris, the attitude of potential
students to getting money as opposed to going into education.
The piece that appeared in the Independent, which obviously
was backed on to the report, quoted one student as saying why
he, a teenager in South Essex: "I just want to earn some
money. I want to work myself up and become a stockbroker and have
a car and a nice house." Leaving aside the aspirations of
that, what I want to ask you is how crucial do you think this
issue of short-term financial earning in the, say, 16 to 19 age
range, is to the process? On the back of that, whether the proposals—as
you know, the Government is piloting the education maintenance
allowances, at the moment, with a prospect of those being rolled
out at a future date—whether you think they will have a
crucial role to play in addressing some of these cultural assumptions.
(Professor Green) John is a Principal in that area
and is in the best position to answer. There is another comment
I would like to make but if John could start.
(Mr Wallace) I think it is quite crucial. That was
one of my students you were reading about. There are certainly
very strong role models for young people, certainly in my patch,
where in the City the very popular image is of getting rich quick
at the age of 25, you have your BMW and your flat and all the
rest of it. Usually a university degree does not compare with
that or feature in that image. There is again quick employment,
if I can put it like that, there are those employment opportunities.
We have two major shopping centres, Lakeside and Bluewater, within
easy travelling distance of my college. Therefore, I am talking
about my patch, where there are plenty of role models of students
leaving, getting fairly high salaries, being mobile, it is easy
to move from one job to another, that strongly reinforces this.
And the converse is true. If you can only introduce role models
or moulds of people who have emerged from comprehensive schools,
(from places like Tilbury, for example, which again is inside
my area), and you can show they have been to university but they
have come back and they are getting jobs; if you can reintroduce
them and take them into the schools, then the role modelling is
very important. The answer is that both are very important, the
longer term aim and the shorter term aim, but a lot of it is through
role modelling. Also, a lot is parental expectation. There is
a lot of anxiety about the bill which is going to come after the
debts and so forth of higher education.
Mr Marsden: That is not the same though as the
traditional idea in the working class family. This is by connection
with the argument against staying on at school. The traditional
assumption was that when you were past 16 you had to go out and
get a job because basically, if you were going to stay within
the family home, there needed to be some money coming in. You
are describing a situation not necessarily where there the student
is thinking, "I have to go out and make my contribution to
the family." What you are describing is a situation where
they have an aspiration to have plenty of spending money in their
pocket and they are after doing the sort of job which takes them
into the lifestyle of the city stockbroker.
Chairman
457. Is it a peculiar nature of the region?
Certainly when you said it was the region with the lowest score
on many of these criteria, I was quite amazed when I first heard
that in the press reports because, as we all know, we have a dynamic
economy in the eastern region. It is seen as that. ICT companies
and all that seem to be the flavour and people look to the eastern
region for much of the new wealth creation as a model.
(Professor Green) Indeed they may, Chair, but you
have to remember it is a large region and with disparate distortions.
For example, if you take the Ipswich/Cambridge corridor in terms
of the IT moves that are currently taking place, there are many
pockets. John has related his experiences in Thurrock. If we took
another area like Lowestoft or areas round the edge, where many
of the cold spots are coastal areas, there is high deprivation.
There is high unemployment. There are also a large number of small,
medium sized enterprises, many of them family firms. Many of these
youngsters are engaged in working for a family firm as well. That
can be a significant factor in the moving away. Many of the parents—and
this is interesting that since we have started working on this
university project, whom some of us have met obviously when they
come in to the university or have been phoning our office—and
have said, "This is fantastic. We did not know this opportunity
could actually happen." They, themselves, are learning that
it is possible for them as well. It is not just the children.
It is possible that they can get additional skills in their local
centres at higher education level or further education level,
which engage additional skills to increase their employment. So
it does vary depending upon which part of the region you are talking
about.
(Dr Johnston) I have a follow-up comment. If you do
have time to read the report you will find a very interesting
transcript. We had focus groups and we had actual transcripts
of conversations. The mixed messages that some of these children
are receiving is that they have been told nationally that you
need a degree to get a job, then locally they are being told something
else. It is this mixed message all the time. If you then add to
that the uncertainty of the actual financial package for entering
higher education, that is an uncertainty factor. It may be a temporary
one but it is a real issue. They are not so sure now. These people
do not buy the economic return argument at all.
458. Are you saying that there is a decline
of applications in the eastern region, because it would be as
the symptom(?), if there was not a large follow-up you would get
a decline in applications of HE?
(Dr Johnston) There is some evidence that this might
well be what is happening.
(Professor Green) Indeed.
(Dr Johnston) Our full-time study—because remember
our study has focused on UCAS full-time entrants—it is important
to make that point. Part of the widening participation was, by
definition, the idea of part-timers coming back, as Chris said,
at the beginning.
(Professor Green) Coming back to colleagues' comments
about HEFCE not giving an answer. When we had the dissemination
conference and HEFCE's officers were there, so they would have
known what we were doing, we did also write to all the MPs in
the region. It is interesting that one of them—I will not
cite which particular constituency—wrote a letter back saying
that the cause of all this problem is the academics, namely the
people sitting in front, ramming the wrong message down the throats
of youngsters. "They do not want you." I am quite happy
to let you have a copy.
459. "They don't want you"?
(Professor Green) "They don't want you."
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