Examination of witnesses (Questions 500
- 514)
TUESDAY 27 JUNE 2000
PROFESSOR CHRIS
GREEN OBE, DR
PETER JOHNSTON,
MR JOHN
WALLACE, DR
ALAN CLARK
and MR ROBERT
FOX
500. In terms of the research you did, was there
any available response from your university in terms of how you
assessed. You said there were no clear messages.
(Dr Clark) All of our universities were asked by HEFCE
to prepare a participation strategy last year. We compiled a written
statement about our initiatives. I would be perfectly happy to
show you that.
(Professor Green) Could I make a point, I think the
point you made about the universities and the chain—notwithstanding
the question you raised and the response Dr Clark gave in respect
to youngsters coming into the actual choice mechanism—the
message we want to put to you is that we are all concerned about
getting that chain further and further back in the whole process
of education. That is very, very important. Years 12 and 13, important
though they are, are not the crucial element in actually deciding
what is going to happen. Therefore, if we put our effort anywhere
it would be further back in that particular process. We put our
mark at Year 8 because that is where we made that strategic position.
501. That would be the message you would be
giving to Government.
(Professor Green) We can take it back further, some
would advocate even further than that. From that point of view,
yes it is.
Mr Marsden
502. Is one of reasons for that, apart from
the actual statistics, because at that Year 8 and Year 9 stage
peer pressure and peer attitudes are at their most intense?
(Professor Green) Yes.
(Dr Johnston) Amongst ourselves we discussed what
the critical age was, there was also a practical issue, what we
could afford to do. We came to exactly the same gap year as you
did. All of the studies show that is the critical, practical place.
(Mr Wallace) Is it possible to add something to Dr
Clark's point? I think it is an important point, I do not think
that Dr Clark has exclusive rights on the mystique of entering
because, although I accept it entirely—
(Dr Clark) I am not claiming them.
(Mr Wallace)—it also applies to many areas of
vocational education in this country, including vocational higher
education. There is generally a large degree of uncertainty or
unknowingness about the opportunities for progressing into higher
education through vocational routes. I know I keep banging on
about vocational higher education but that, as well as bringing
it back down to Year 8, and so on and so forth, there is the vast
cohort of potential for developing higher education and coming
through the vocational route. If you listened to Radio 4 this
morning you would have heard adverse comments and comparisons
between ourselves and Germany, where apparently three times more
workers in Germany have vocational qualifications than, I am not
sure whether it is England or the United Kingdom. Those adverse
comparisons are not new. They are a large target for HE participation,
through that route, as well as through the more traditional and
specialist routes, such as Oxford, as you were saying.
(Professor Green) If you look in the report, as I
am sure some colleagues will, you will find that transparency
in applications and the selection process is something that many
of the youngsters highlight as one of the things that they want
to see, not just in respect of the University of Cambridge but
to higher education institutions as a whole.
503. On the higher educational and vocational
aspect, are you referring to things like the accreditation of
prior learning, which are a complete mystery for people who are
uninitiated into higher education but can really make a difference
in terms of the length of study and the ability of people to actually
embrace.
(Mr Wallace) I think that is a very good example.
I was not exclusively referring to that, I was thinking of the
whole understanding that vocational education can lead you in
that way. There are now great opportunities for progression and
the work we are doing in FE links to HE and opens that out. I
think one of the things we have to do is try and culturally value
HE in FE institutions as being different but equally valid to
HE institutions. There is a difference. Thurrock College does
not pretend to be a university, it claims to deliver a damn good
HE in an FE environment and offer local opportunity so that people
can progress on to our partners in HE.
Dr Harris
504. I wanted to come back to the fascinating
factor that you found, that the participation rate in the Cambridge
district, which I know is big enough to account for families and
people working in the university, was no higher than average.
I am not going to ask you to repeat that assertion. Was there
not in your work any perceptions in universities from that area
being elite, if you like, or full of toffs, people swanning round
in black ties or white ties, or whatever it is that they wear.
Certainly that is part of the reason, I understand from the NFER
study, that the perceptions of Oxford and Cambridge nationally
are rather like that, the Brideshead factor. I am surprised it
is not reproduced locally. Just like I am surprised that there
is not higher participation on the other side of the coin locally.
(Dr Clark) I find it a little bit hard to see how
a local perception of the reality of the university is going to
affect the participation from the local area in higher education
nationally, which is what these figures are about. I can see why
town and gown consideration might put off application to the local
toffs university, to use your terminology. I think the explanation
is quite different.
(Professor Green) It would be interesting that at
the end of the three days that youngsters from Fenland spend in
Cambridge City, as part of the Children-into-University project,
whether their perceptions—we would not be asking them this
question—are the same. I would suspect that many of them
do not even know where Cambridge is.
505. One of the problems is that every time
there is an issue raised about access to universities in the media,
which is what young people see, in terms of television, it illustrates
pictures of people swanning around in the two days out of the
year that they do walk around down in academic dress. This is
a setback for those universities, but that is not a local factor
because, presumably, they see the other 363 days of the year.
(Dr Clark) I think so. The efforts that the universities
that we are talking about put into events nationally, like the
Wembley and Manchester conferences, and so on, and the continuous
contact with schools are part of this different process of demystifying
it. It is interesting to see the feedback from students who, once
things are explained, do look at the two ancient universities
through different eyes.
Chairman
506. When you were talking about hotspots and
coldspots, is there any evidence that bright students in coldspots
are underachieving and missing out here? What is the difference
that you are finding in terms of bright students in hotspots and
coldspots?
(Professor Green) As always, there is anecdotal evidence.
Since we have targeted the coldspots I think we are gradually
building up, ahead of just more than anecdotal evidence, that
there are talented youngsters there who the schools would feel
on the basis of their judgement, right or wrong, they will never
go into higher education, unless there was some direct intervention.
That is the purpose of the intervention. It has all sorts of ethical
issues, whether you should do that. We are doing it. I cannot
tell you whether it will be successful. In four or five years'
time if we were to repeat this exercise I hope we could say, yes,
we have had that success. There is evidence from the teachers
and from the parents that there are youngsters there, and there
are a large number of them. I do not think it is pessimistic.
If we can make that intervention there is a degree of optimism
that we shall do something about addressing this tremendous shortfall.
507. Let us go across a fine body of men.
(Professor Green) And the women behind.
508. Who probably did all of work.
(Professor Green) As Chairman you may say that.
Dr Harris: Behind every successful man there
is a surprised woman!
509. Let us go from Dr Clark through to Robert,
you are into this research, you have a good feel about it. This
is a very important investigation, how do we make the best use
of our talented youngsters in this country and how do we encourage
youngsters to stay in education and make the most of their talent
in higher education. What would you say were the critical things
we have to tackle in this country to make a difference?
(Dr Clark) An unpopular thing, I think we need to
look, again, at the student maintenance system. A mechanical thing,
I would like to see this statistical study extended nationally.
For a university like mine I would like to know about the national
coldspots and hotspots, not just the regional ones.
(Mr Wallace) A rapid list, if I am allowed, prioritise
the vocational base of HE and the work base route; engage employers;
invest in advice and guidance, and projects like this to find
out more; do not spend loads of money on expensive capital projects
that it needs to do; ensure that the funding routes keep the option
open. I mean FEFC, New Learning and Skills Council, DfEE councils,
the whole benefits, can be significant barriers. Those are the
points, Also, respecting the FE and HE, which I spoke about before.
(Professor Green) Consolidate the funding to enable
long-term investment to take place. Recognise that for many of
the youngsters and mature students coming into universities and
colleges of further education that have higher education the need
to provide adequate support guidance service. That needs to be
funded. We think that is important. Also, there is no quick-fix
to widening participation, simply putting money into a scheme
that is actually local, if they suddenly widen the gate I would
be sceptical of that.
(Dr Johnston) One particular issue we have not discussed
at all here—I want to speak on an individual capacity—I
am on the QAA Access Recognition Licensing Committee, something
I feel strongly about is the whole FE/HE interface, the current
funding in colleges. Students are overachieving and cannot be
carried forward into higher education. Accrediting at a high level
of FE and the first level of HE is an important barrier. There
is an emphasis on financing study. Individuals want to progress
as rapidly as possible and they should not be held up by funding
methodology.
(Mr Fox) I hope that we could tackle, as a group,
the aspirations and the culture of the area where participation
is particularly low. In order to do this we do need to maintain
funding from the funding councils.
Chairman: One last thing, it seems me, here
you are in Silicon Fen in the eastern region and none of you suggested
using ICT skills. Is this one of the things you regard as a quick-fix?
I would have thought every aspirant young man and woman in your
region has learned by now the magic of being in ICT and how it
can become reality and you get your Mercedes, your life-style.
Dr Harris
510. Virtually.
(Professor Green) A virtual Mercedes would not be
a substitute for the real thing, like many things in life. We
have being awarded a contract for JISC, which links all of our
capacity in. That project award was made last month. In August
and September we are doing a lot of work in linking colleges and
delivering programmes by the Internet, video conference, and so
on. We see that as a good use of resources, engaging the staff
in colleges and universities, and also the students. It is already
happening but it could happen wider.
(Dr Johnston) Open University is a member of our consortium.
They are not here today, but Open University is very relevant
in our population.
Chairman
511. Interestingly enough, in places like Silicon
Fen do you have higher aspirations and higher fences to jump for
your young people in your university institutions or your colleges
in the Thurrock? Do you say you cannot come in unless do you have
an access course in ICT skills so that you raise the level? Do
you do this in Cambridge?
(Professor Green) Yes. They are part of key skills
that are accredited in term of graduate skills. In higher education
a programme credit is given for things like compact. I will be
careful Chair, if I may, linking the whole of East Anglia by Silicon
Fen, in the same way as Huddersfield does not represent the totality
of Yorkshire. Silicon Fen is only a strip of marshland. With one
degree of global warming our participation rates could be solved
because it will not exist any longer.
512. Every one wants to clone Huddersfield,
it is not possible.
(Mr Wallace) We do not set ICT competence as an entry
requirement, however by the time all students leave we will have
provided the requisite skills. If I can say one thing, I do not
say this facetiously, please carry on asking questions about HE
participation. It does need drive and to be asking the relevant
questions.
513. That is a very fine way to finish this
evidence session.
(Professor Green) Thank you very much, indeed.
514. Thank you, again. On your way home you
always think about things you should have said, drop us a line
if you do.
(Professor Green) Thank you.
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