Examination of witnesses (Questions 540
- 559)
WEDNESDAY 28 JUNE 2000
DR PHILIP
EVANS OBE and MRS
SUE FISHBURN
Mr St Aubyn
540. So what you are saying is you think your
parents are paying that money because they have this great insight
that the more they can get in terms of education for their children
the better?
(Dr Evans) Yes.
(Mrs Fishburn) They are the educational professionals.
This is 25 per cent of my parent body.
541. In terms of your pitch to them and other
schools which you represent, are you giving them the same message
about the higher education sector, that there is a range of universities
available here that their children may aim for and, again, they
should not be particularly focused on one or two because of perhaps
historic views about them?
(Dr Evans) Absolutely. As educational professionals
it would be wrong of us to try to direct people to universities
because we feel there is some kind of social cachet to the school
in doing so. My own motivation in advising my own pupils is, one,
the course which they would best be suited to and, within that,
which university. In many cases it would be some universities
which are highly regarded but which perhaps would not be quite
so familiar to the general public.
Charlotte Atkins
542. Given the advantages enjoyed by students
in the independent sector, do you think a student from a comprehensive
school with the same qualifications or points, whatever, as a
student from the independent sector should be treated the same
by university admissions? I am not talking here just about Oxbridge
that would have the interview process but a university that is
basically looking at the raw scores of two students, one from
the independent sector and one from a comprehensive.
(Mrs Fishburn) Can I distinguish, before I answer
that, the raw score that you referred to. The point is that a
lot of universities will ask for an A, B, B in certain subjects.
543. Yes, but we heard from Dr Evans that actually
universities will more likely be looking at GCSE results because
very often the A level scores are not available. If we are looking
at the range of achievement, how do you define that?
(Mrs Fishburn) It should be an equal level playing
field, we have no debate about that.
544. I think that the debate has been that given
the advantages given to a student from an independent school that
actually the potential of a student from a comprehensive school
might be greater than the student from an independent school who
has had all the parenting advantages that you very ably explained
to us. In that situation, if a comprehensive school student has
achieved the same as an independent school student without those
advantages one could argue that it would be more sensible for
the university to take the student from the comprehensive school.
(Dr Evans) That is an interesting and difficult issue.
I would take some issue with innate advantages. There was a report
from Ofsted and the Institute of Education in London in the mid-1990s
that recognised 11 factors common to high achieving schools, some
of which are common to both. For example, a home school partnership,
support for the school's ethos from the home, and that spreads
across both sectors. I think there are advantages perhaps that
go across both sectors. As a scientist I am somewhat uncomfortable
about taking data and then ignoring it or also taking data and
then making a subjective adjustment to that data. If what you
are saying has some validity we ought to be making some measurements
that allow quantification of that. That takes us back possibly
to the further examination of some basic test which is independent,
which is context independent, which tests native ability, such
as the American SATs. I would be unhappy, because I think it is
open to abuse and it would make the process totally untransparent,
to have some subjective judgment made of candidates which alters
their currency because of where they come from, I think that is
a dangerous move.
545. But Sue's pitch to parents is that the
independent sector offers great advantages in terms of broadening
their potential in terms of their overall educational ability.
Despite obviously the importance of home school agreements and
so on we have to accept that the sorts of advantages that a comprehensive
school can provide their students are way below what an independent
school with all its resources and with its smaller classes can
provide for those students.
(Dr Evans) What is interesting—
546. That is not a level playing field.
(Dr Evans) We do not know. It is interesting that
in all the data that the Department collects it is actually very
difficult to tease out whether the results from the independent
sector that we have put forward in our own briefing paper to you
is either because we do it rather well, which we like to think
we do, or whether, for example, selectivity plays a part. There
is no way of being certain why those results, nearly half of all
A level grades in my own subject—chemistry—come from
the independent sector which represents initially 70 per cent
of the sector and 20 per cent of A level students. Before one
starts to make subject adjustments to carefully collected data
one should perhaps ask that question.
Dr Harris
547. I want to take forward Charlotte's point
because looking at it in another way there is objective evidence
to the point that Charlotte made. It is hard to argue that with
the extra resources and the more time teachers have to do extracurricular
work that there are not advantages in building up CVs, if you
like, through the private sector. But HEFCE said in their evidence,
which they then sent more details on, "there is also evidence
that for any given total of A level points, pupils from comprehensive
schools perform better in terms of degree class than pupils from
private schools". That may be a small difference but, if
you agree the degree class is post facto justification for admission,
and it is probably the best one we have got, it might be logical
for universities, if that could be quantified, to give a lower
threshold, maybe by just one point, for A level scores for comprehensive
school students compared to either grammar school students or,
indeed, private school students because then you would have equity
of outcome and it may not be such a great difference? Surely that
is unarguable if that evidence is found?
(Mrs Fishburn) I think if you were to try to go down
that avenue you might look to the vast range of difference in
comprehensive schools too. The two that I quoted in Mr Willis'
constituency are what might be termed leafy-suburb schools with,
I would suggest, a parental background very similar to my own
school. However, if I look to the school which is perhaps two
miles away in the centre of Leeds then I would agree with you
that for the candidate that is going right to the top of that
school where 70 per cent of the children are coming in at 11-plus
with a reading age of two years below their chronological age,
somebody who fights their way through that system when it comes
to the university application, we would have no issue with somebody
saying "let us look at that". You cannot put a huge
brush through all comprehensives.
548. It always happens when you subdivide. In
any science you can take a group and say "let us see if we
can subdivide it". Generally speaking, you would not be opposed
to a limited role stating that a group of people on the same course
should have a lower threshold of A level points compared to others
because of the background and schools they come from? You have
conceded that is what I am asking.
(Dr Evans) I have not seen the Higher Education Funding
Council data. Over the years there have been a number of attempts
to correlate parameters such as GCSE and A level with final degree
grades and that has thrown up in some cases not very strong correlation
and in others correlation that seem to show it is better to base
it on GCSE rather than A level. I think I would have some anxiety
about basing some quantification of selection procedure on some
post hoc data, as you put it, when the thermometer of measuring
that is based on a class of degrees that only have four grades,
but since most people do not get thirds these days it is three,
mainly it is Firsts, 2.1s and 2.2s. The problem with any quantification
from degree results is that the vast bulk of students these days
get 2.1s and 2.2s and you have not got very fine data making that
judgment but far finer data in looking at exam results from institutions.
I think that is the bit I would like to look at, I think it is
an interesting thesis, but I feel instinctively there is an element
of that that is statistically flawed.
Chairman
549. You will not be surprised that this Committee
has as one of its central objectives to find out if there are
talented people in our society with the talent and the qualifications
who are not getting into the educational institutions they would
most benefit from?
(Dr Evans) Of course not, Chairman. Having come from
a maintained school myself to Cambridge I could hardly say anything
else.
550. That is precisely what Evan and Charlotte
are trying to put over here.
(Mrs Fishburn) But I think our point would be that
you need to be discriminating in a much finer way than comprehensive
entry against grammar school against independent sector.
Dr Harris
551. If you have blunt outcome data, which is
degree class, which I accept, there is still an effect shown despite
that that actually increases the power and if despite having relatively
blunt outcome data, you can still show that discrepancy then that
suggests there may be efforts that could be made. Effectively
what is happening here is that of people with the same points
score, the private school people are doing slightly worse on average
than the same A level points score of comprehensive school students
and that means that there are other comprehensive school students
with slightly worse scores who are not getting in in preference
to privately educated students with the better scores who are
doing worse.
(Dr Evans) The proper scientist's reply to that, Chairman,
is I would like to see the data first. The data I have seen illustrate
that this effect is insignificant.
Chairman: This was originally Charlotte's line
of inquiry so I am going back to her.
Charlotte Atkins
552. Sue proudly told us that a quarter of her
parents are themselves in the education field.
(Mrs Fishburn) Yes.
553. Why do you think those parents who know
about education send their pupils to your school if they do not
think that your school will ensure that they reach their full
potential better than any other school? Therefore, given that
view I would assume, and expect you to accept, the inherited advantages
of independent schools compared to comprehensives, massive comprehensives,
would be such that it should be taken on board when those pupils,
those students, apply for university admission?
(Mrs Fishburn) I would go back to the point that I
made earlier on. If you look at certain areas in the country there
are areas where particularly at sixth form the independent sector
fights very hard to keep its pupils because the maintained sector
provision, where it is of good quality, is very attractive. What
we need to see, I would suggest to this Committee, is a maintained
sector which provides greater competition to us in its provision.
I do not think we can adjust the balance by, as Philip said, trying
to tinker subjectively with the only quantitative data we have
for selection.
(Dr Evans) What would be useful is to say why is the
independent sector—I do not think it is simply an issue
of resources nor indeed teacher ratios—successful by all
parameters that we can find and what is it that perhaps the educational
system in this country can learn from that. We are part of the
educational structure of this country, we are very happy to be
involved in discussions, we are very pleased to be here today
and I would hope that our success might catalyse some thinking
as to what is it we are doing quite well and what can the system
as a whole learn from that.
Chairman: That is what we want to come on to
in a moment. Helen?
Helen Jones
554. Can we perhaps explore this subjective/objective
contrast. What you are saying to us in evidence appears to be
contradictory. In your opening statement you said quite rightly
that entry to university should be transparent and on merit and
yet later on you said to us that schools that have links with
top universities do better, whether they are state schools or
independent schools, we could argue about that, at getting their
students into top universities than others. If the selection is
to be on merit and transparency, why should that matter?
(Mrs Fishburn) Can I challenge your point there because
that was not was said. There was a question from the Chairman
about the links between independent schools and colleges to which
I made a reply. I then extended that reply to say those links
were there across the sector. That answer was not linked with
the entry and the benefits that confers. I would actually say
that colleges and universities at the moment are bending over
backward to show that they do not use any such network and that
their academic criteria and their general non-academic criteria
are as transparent as they can be. I think you linked two points
which were not linked in my original statement.
555. Are you telling the Committee that a child
from an inner city comprehensive with no tradition perhaps of
sending children to top universities has an equal chance of admission
against a child from an independent school with the same exam
results on which perhaps the head of an Oxbridge college sits
on the governing body?
(Dr Evans) That is absolutely not our experience.
As far as we can see the process is absolutely even-handed. I
will quote a senior admissions tutor of a Cambridge college some
years ago: "If I have two candidates where I can make no
distinction, the GCSE results, the end results, are identical,
the candidates' profiles are to all intents and purposes indistinguishable,
if one is from Bedford and one is from an inner city comprehensive,
it would be obvious which one I would take". I do not think
there is any evidence that networking produces any better results,
absolutely none at all, if anything quite the reverse.
556. What is the advantage to independent schools
of having the heads of Oxbridge colleges on their governing bodies?
(Dr Evans) I think where there is value is in good
advice about appropriate courses and appropriate universities
so the candidate might interview well because he or she would
feel this was the place to be. The second thing is I would have
anxieties again about making subjective judgments about how candidates
present different grades, as I said to your colleague. If there
are advantages then let us try and collect more data to make sure
that candidates are fairly treated but subjectivity in how we
assess grades I think is a dangerous route.
557. One of the factors you told us was important
earlier, among many I accept, was the head's reference. Is it
not the case that if you have a reference from a head where the
school has close links with a particular college, that will be
paid more attention to than one from a head that the college does
not know?
(Dr Evans) I doubt it. The reference would be seen
by the admissions tutor at either a college or university. It
is actually a job that many dons do not want to do. Admissions
tutors change with considerable regularity. What links we might
have would be with senior professors. I really do feel there is
no evidence, either anecdotally or in my own experience, that
this confers any advantage at all.
558. So what is the advantage to independent
schools of having the heads of so many Oxbridge colleges on their
governing bodies?
(Mrs Fishburn) Speaking as one that does not I cannot
answer.
559. But many of them do.
(Dr Evans) Speaking as one who has relationships with
an Oxford college, I do not want to become anecdotal because one
might speak too personally but, if anything, it is the reverse,
not that I would seek any advantage. The process is entirely transparent
and on merit from my own experience of dealing with a specific
Oxford college.
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