Examination of witnesses (Questions 580
- 593)
WEDNESDAY 28 JUNE 2000
DR PHILIP
EVANS OBE and MRS
SUE FISHBURN
Chairman
580. Philip, when you and I went to university
two to three per cent of us went to university, we now have a
Government expanding education to 30-50 per cent, and there is
a huge cost attached.
(Dr Evans) I would concede the cost is high. It is
a difficult problem of ensuring that appropriate HE seems attractive
to students while at the same time there is an increasing financial
burden either on the student him or herself or, indeed, on the
family.
Dr Harris
581. One might argue that if one wants to support
top departments in our universities there may be a genuine choice
between either tuition fees or top-up fees or even, dare I say,
raising taxation to fund it. I accept that is outside the area
of your evidence session.
(Dr Evans) Yes.
582. I want to ask about a fascinating situation
where McCrum and Halsey in 1998 showed that over 6,000 pupils
applied to Oxford between 1994 and 1997 and then achieved three
Grade As at A level and those from independent schools were 20
per cent more likely to be offered a place. We have heard lots
of evidence, and I do not think we argue with this, that the main
factor in the lower representation of state school applicants
at the so-called top universities is the shortage of people getting
those top grades in proportion with the numbers in the state sector
where there is a shortage of people applying. Peter Lampl was
quite clear he felt that was the overwhelming factor. Once you
get to the admissions stage there is a question, is there not,
even though it is a smaller factor, about why it is that the success
rate in that study showed a higher success for independent schools
and I put three potential explanations as to why that is more
likely. One, that there is bias in the system, for whatever reason,
that you are more likely to succeed as an independent school candidate.
Or that the state school candidates are putting in more hopeless
candidates apparently, although they do appear to all get three
As they are just not capable of passing at the interview stage.
Or the independent schools are better at not putting forward people
who are not going to get in. What is the explanation for that?
(Dr Evans) Not having seen the paper, I am cautious
in commenting in a way. I will not comment on whether the maintained
sector is pressing through candidates inappropriately. I think
we are well aware of candidates who have not got a realistic chance
of Oxbridge entry and seek to dissuade, if only because if you
are going for medicine at Oxford or Cambridge and you are not
a terrific candidate, medicine is so competitive that you are
also reducing your chances of getting in elsewhere. Sometimes
candidates perhaps have Oxbridge aspirations which in the end
impact very badly on their offers from other universities. It
may well be that there is increased selectivity at the school
advice end. The other point I would add, ruling out bias as you
might expect, is while candidates have three As there is, as we
have put in our supporting paper, a difference not only between
perception but statistically between A levels in terms of their
perceived difficulty. For example, there is considerable statistical
evidence that the most difficult A level for candidates with the
same GCSE portfolio is physics, while the easiest is communication
studies. So if a candidate presents with communication studies,
media studies and law, three of the easiest A levels, while another
candidate with three A grades in maths, physics and chemistry,
in all fairness I think there is an increased credibility for
that latter candidate and statistically the evidence will justify
that as well. For example, it is not surprising that Imperial
College's break down of state versus independent is about 50/50
when nearly 50 per cent of A grades in maths, physics and chemistry
come from the independent science and that is a wholly science,
math and medical recruiting university.
Mr Marsden
583. That is a very important issue for secondary
schools and, indeed, for Government, when we are talking about
A levels or future qualifications, to look more closely at the
nature of the qualifications being pursued and their appropriateness
for university entry.
(Dr Evans) It is one of the reasons why, for example,
in my own school the physical sciences are popular, well taught
but also candidates are well aware of the credibility, it is a
hard currency on all measures.
Chairman
584. You will also know that it is an area in
the state sector where it is more and more difficult to recruit
good science and mathematics teachers.
(Dr Evans) A considerable concern nationally, Chairman.
(Mrs Fishburn) With respect, that is not just a state
sector issue.
585. You are finding difficulty as well?
(Dr Evans) Yes.
(Mrs Fishburn) It is an issue across the education
culture.
586. It is a scarce resource but you have more
resources than the state sector with which to attract them?
(Mrs Fishburn) No, I would dispute that.
(Dr Evans) I have managed so far.
587. But you pay better on average than the
state sector in the private sector, do you not?
(Mrs Fishburn) I can probably answer that question
when the threshold pay issue is clearer.
Dr Harris
588. My last question is about the quality of
the data we have been seeing of people in the independent sector
who are getting good A levels. There are still assisted places
people coming through. In the data, included in the people who
are deemed to be independent school entrants at so-called hot
universities are a proportion of people who in socio-economic
background are not of the usual mix and, therefore, that affects
the data although I do not suppose it bridges the gap entirely.
Can you tell us later on perhaps, if you cannot now, how much
that does distort the data that has been widely reported?
(Dr Evans) Sorry, which data?
589. It shows that while only 30 per cent of
three As come from the independent sector, 50 per cent are getting
into the top universities that take three As, say Cambridge and
Oxford are similar in that respect, but some of those people are
presumably people from socio-economic backgrounds where if it
was not for the assisted places they would be in the state sector.
How much does that affect that data? What sort of cohort numbers
that you create are assisted places?
(Dr Evans) We were in the Government assisted places
scheme and we have candidates working through but we also, through
the endowment of my governing body, the Harpur Trust, which is
a local charity, have some £400,000 annually of fee support
income so that, in fact, a substantial minority of my candidates
come from disadvantaged backgrounds and there is no evidence that
produces a differential performance at the output level. We are
selective, of course, but once they are in the background seems
to make very little, if any, difference. The other point I would
add is you said only 30 per cent, given that it is 7 per cent
in total I think "only 30" is quite reasonable. In fact,
if you look at the harder A levels the figures are more stark.
In economics, the physical sciences, mathematics, modern languages
and history, the A grade proportion is well over 40 per cent.
Remarkably in the case of economics and in the physical sciences
it approaches 50 and it is greater than 50 in French. I think
there is a substantial issue there as to why that should be the
case.
Chairman
590. As a professional educator, to draw this
session to a close, what advice would you from the private sector
give to the state sector in order to get them to improve their
performance? What are the three things you would ask them to do?
(Dr Evans) I think the quality of leadership in the
school is central. I would seek to ensure that that quality is
raised, if possible. I think the Head Teachers College is an interesting
move in that direction. I say this hesitantly, I would seek to
decrease Government bureaucracy. I was on SCAA and QCA for eight
years under the previous Government and part of this Government
and I think there is perhaps a confusion with too much intervention
always biting on standards. I think many schools with good leaders
know what they are doing and a bit more freedom to move with that
would be helpful. I would do something—I do not know what
the answer is—about the imbalance between schools which
seek to produce a learning culture and an environment of discipline
in an apparently increased environment of indiscipline in general
which in one sense was perhaps exemplified by the football competition
recently.
591. Or the behaviour of the WI?
(Dr Evans) Your words, Chairman.
592. Both examples of indiscipline in different
circumstances. Sue, do you want to comment?
(Mrs Fishburn) I would wholly endorse the concept
of a learning culture. I think that if you look at the best state
schools, what distinguishes them is a culture of high expectation.
I think that is what we find in our own schools. Going back to
my opening point, I take in three year olds, they are exposed
to a high expectation culture and they come out as 18 year olds
with a basket of very good qualifications. I do not claim to be
able to select at three the level of intellectual potential, I
think that is good teaching, high expectation and a culture where
achievement is the norm.
593. Thank you very much for your evidence.
If you have any great thoughts on the way back to your proper
jobs do drop us a line, we would be very grateful. Thank you for
taking some robust and, I hope, useful questions.
(Dr Evans) I think we have enjoyed the experience,
Chairman, thank you to you and your colleagues.
Chairman: Thank you.
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