Examination of witness (Questions 640
- 659)
TUESDAY 4 JULY 2000
MR TONY
HIGGINS
Dr Harris
640. I want to switch subjects. I am interested
in your daughter. Let me rephrase that, I am interested in the
case of your daughter. We cannot talk about some individual cases,
we have been denied that opportunity, but I want to ask why people
are not applying sometimes to some of the top universities. My
first question is do you think the discrepancy that we see, which
is generally recognised by the Committee as a problem, in the
under-representation of certain groups, be that state schools
or comprehensive school or inner city school or people in deprived
areas in top universities, is due mainly to a shortfall in the
number of applications or, given an application, discrimination
at the admissions point against them?
(Mr Higgins) There will be many views, I am certain.
641. Your view preferably.
(Mr Higgins) No, it is the people who are choosing
not to apply who will have those views. There will be those who
think, I think mistakenly, that Cambridge is an expensive place
to live but that is not necessarily the case. My daughter did
not think she would really like the sort of social scene that
she would be likely to meet in Oxbridge so she applied to go to
Keele, got a jolly good degree and she has got a very good job
now.
642. What subject was that?
(Mr Higgins) She did joint music and German and is
now the marketing director for the National Space Science Centre
in Leicester. My son decided at the last minute "yes, I think
I will go to Cambridge". He went to Cambridge, got a good
degree and he is now working in publishing. People have different
reasons for choosing to go or not to go to different places.
643. My question was do you think that the discrepancy
in the representation of people from, say, comprehensives, which
is not in these top universities in proportion to their numbers
nor indeed in their numbers in getting good A levels, good enough
A levels to get in, is due to, whatever the reason, a failure
to apply, not a failure on their part but a decision not to apply,
or is it due in part or in the main to discrimination after they
have applied at the interview or other part of the admissions
stage?
(Mr Higgins) No, it is the former. I would not accuse
any of my colleagues of discrimination, either positively or negatively,
on receipt of application.
Chairman
644. No-one is suggesting that, Tony. One of
the things that we do know about the degree system, for example,
is that no-one who has given evidence to us so far has mentioned
a university that actually trains their interviewers in interviewing
technique, indeed even in terms of qualities that are well known
in interviewing in terms of sensitivity of ethnic minority questions
and so on. We are not in this Committee trying to find some plot
to keep lower socio-economic kids out of universities, we are
trying to look at a system that actually results in very few of
them getting to university and even fewer getting to so-called
top universities. It is not a conspiracy we are trying to unveil,
it is a process that does not deliver. By that I merely pluck
out we are not suggesting the interview process is corrupt, we
are saying it is inefficient.
(Mr Higgins) There is relatively little interviewing
going on now. There is interviewing compulsorily in relation to
teacher education and almost certainly medical education. There
is interviewing at Oxford and Cambridge but much of the other
interviewing is done almost as a marketing exercise to try to
sell the institution to the particular applicant. I will change
what I said, if you wish, and say there is no knowing discrimination
being exercised, either positive or negative, by interviewers.
The question is how to get those who do not apply to various universities
to apply to them. At UCAS we map every applicant through his or
her post code literally on the map of the UK. One of your colleagues
from the Select Committee some time ago, who is no longer on the
Committee, came to visit us and he asked to see the map of his
particular constituency and there it was with all of these dots
all over it representing where all the people lived and in the
top right-hand corner there was not a single applicant to higher
education. That was the big council estate in his constituency
and he felt he had to do something about that. Oxford, Cambridge
and other universities are desperately going out to try to get
people from all over the country, state schools as well as independent
schools, to apply to them. At least they can get to the gate and
if they are not good enough they do not get admitted.
Dr Harris
645. I am fascinated by your reply that it is
the admissions process and we have to do something about it. It
is a bit of a cheeky question but would you describe the decision
of your daughter, despite having the qualifications, not to apply
to Oxbridge to be a scandal?
(Mr Higgins) No, she took exactly the right decision.
She did an absolutely fantastic degree. Not only was it in music
and German but she also managed to do her year out in Salzburg
and, even better, finished up with an excellent job. I think it
is wonderful. It was absolutely the right decision.
Charlotte Atkins
646. As one of the local MPs for Keele I support
your view. Earlier on in your evidence you said that 75 per cent
of your applicants get in and the word you said after that was
you "guess" that the others fall by the wayside for
a number of reasons. Is it a guess or do you have a detailed break
down of why the applicants do not get into the university?
(Mr Higgins) We know that around about 34,000 a year
apply, get qualifications and then do not go on to higher education.
We survey them as to what their reasons are for not going on and
the vast majority say that they are reassessing their career options.
None of them have given up on higher education. Many of them will
be reapplying. You are back to the same issue, the post qualification
application, because they realised at that stage what they applied
for was not right for them and they drop out and start all over
again.
Chairman
647. Is UCAS not trying to make that more difficult?
(Mr Higgins) No.
648. There is no change in the rules?
(Mr Higgins) No.
Charlotte Atkins
649. Is it possible, given the evidence you
collect, to do an analysis of applications by different types
of school?
(Mr Higgins) Yes, it is.
650. Do you do that?
(Mr Higgins) We could do.
651. You do not at the moment do that?
(Mr Higgins) Not as routine. We do analyses of applicants
and admissions by type of school and that is published on our
website. We do not do analyses of those who have not got in by
type of school but we could do, and also by age group.
652. And also by socio-economic background of
each student?
(Mr Higgins) Yes.
653. Again, you do not publish that either?
(Mr Higgins) We publish the success rate of application
by socio-economic background and also by ethnic origin and by
ethnic origin by socio-economic background and so on, the numbers
of applicants and the numbers who have succeeded.
654. Not by applicant?
(Mr Higgins) I guess you could derive from those figures
the numbers that do not.
655. Are you thinking about publishing them?
(Mr Higgins) That is published already. That is published
every year in our annual report and it is now on our website.
656. By school?
(Mr Higgins) By school?
657. Yes.
(Mr Higgins) By socio-economic group by school?
658. Not necessarily, by types of school.
(Mr Higgins) The success rate is published by type
of school.
659. Okay.
(Mr Higgins) Numbers of applicants, numbers of successful
students by type of school. We do not publish information on,
as it were, failures.
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