Examination of witness (Questions 680
- 699)
TUESDAY 4 JULY 2000
MR TONY
HIGGINS
Chairman
680. I think we have pursued one line for quite
some time and I would hate to lose your valuable opinion on one
or two other issues. Looking at the broad spectrum, you talked
about the need for sociological research but there is a very important
document, From Elitism to Inclusion, that is over two years
old, sponsored partly by the CVCP, HEFCE and so on. In it it suggested
ways in which you could expand to a much more inclusive institution
as a higher education institution. Firstly, you must know about
this piece of work but are there exemplars who took this to heart,
this From Elitism to Inclusion, who have been more successful?
In your wonderful statistical knowledge, are there institutions
that are right up there ahead of anybody else in terms of social
inclusion, doing a better job? I do not want to compare Oxford
to Huddersfield University, but comparable institutions, one of
which is doing much better than the other in similar situations.
(Mr Higgins) That is an impossible question to answer
at the moment. As you say, that research was published a couple
of years ago and it might take seven, eight, ten years for institutions
to be able to demonstrate whether they are being more successful
or less successful. We chose as our partners for the research
we are doing four institutions who are all being extremely successful:
Birmingham University, one of the so-called elite universities,
the Colleges of Ripon and York, St John, Queen Mary and Westfield
College, and the University of Central Lancashire. They are all
doing different kinds of work, some with ethnic minorities, some
with those in poor areas in East London and the rural poor in
North Yorkshire. There will be many other examples.
681. Are there any views you have in terms of
what seems to be successful? We have had a lot of talk here over
the last couple of months about the value of some schools, and
Peter Lampl and the Sutton Trust have given evidence to this Committee.
Although I certainly would not under value some schools, there
is another voice which is coming forward that says you need something
much earlier—I think Charlotte has been raising it—which
starts at a lower age and is a much more consistent relationship
over time. Is any of the evidence you have seen from UCAS's point
of view suggesting one is more successful than another?
(Mr Higgins) We certainly tried two years ago to run
one or two conferences for teachers of children of the ages of
13 or 14 to try to begin to sell the concept of how advice might
be given on entry to higher education to those who perhaps might
not normally think of it. They were the least attended conferences
that we have had. I just do not know whether any universities
are consciously getting into the highways and byways to try to
get to young people that age but that is what we should be doing.
At the moment we are working on developing an electronic guidance
system available through the web, we hope alongside qualified
careers officers, to help people make decisions starting at the
age of 13 or 14 when they make their decisions about GCSEs and
then the next set of decisions about A levels or vocational A
levels and then entry into higher education. We would like pupils
to do the GCSEs that they want to do, that they feel comfortable
in doing, but we would like to think that we might well be able
to sell the benefits when they select their GCSEs that they are
perhaps beginning to plan, albeit at a very early age, to go on
to higher education.
Mr Marsden
682. You will know when you came to see us last
year this was a question I and another Member of the Committee
asked you about specifically, the involvement of FE students and
students from other backgrounds in the UCAS process. Are you going
to be looking in that study at the extent to which feeder applicants
from FE colleges are important in widening access? What more generally
is your view as to how that relationship between FE colleges and
universities could be developed?
(Mr Higgins) The answer to your first question is
yes. Secondly, you may or may not know that we have just taken
into membership of UCAS a further 83 FE colleges who will be admitting
their students through our system. I suspect there may be more
FE colleges coming into the system in future years, perhaps particularly
also in Scotland. I see the divide between FE and HE blurring
by every day that goes past.
683. Sorry to interrupt but I want to try to
get this point out. Do you think that blurring of the divide between
FE and HE is beneficial to the idea of widening access and bringing
in people from socio-economic groups who might see the jump to
HE as a bridge too far and they are far more comfortable especially
in this community base with FE education?
(Mr Higgins) Yes, I do. Perhaps more by luck than
by judgment we are developing a system—I will quote higher
education for the moment—very much along the lines that
is available in North America. We have an Ivy League, it is called
the Russell Group. I think inevitably at some stage there will
be tuition fees levels, raised so that we will have effectively
private universities. We will have state universities. One of
the real developments will be that we will have an increasing
merger of FE colleges, usually with each other. In fact, that
has been encouraged by FEFC. They will effectively be the community
colleges they have in North America. They will be offering foundation
degrees and other higher education diplomas as well as degrees
under licence to partner universities. For those who feel they
do not want to travel and there is not a university in Gloucester
or Swindon or—
684. Blackpool.
(Mr Higgins) Blackpool. That will help those people
access that. Then of course, on a slightly different slant, we
now have students paying their way through higher education which
they did not used to do before. Some universities have got job
agencies on campus to help their students get jobs during term
time as well as in vacation time. When we have the Chief Executive
of the Quality Assurance Agency saying "look, how much longer
are we going to have classified honours degrees, shall we just
have transcripts like we have in the USA?", I guess in five
or six years' time we will have a North American system of higher
education in the UK.
Chairman
685. Considering you were quite reluctant on
some issues to be drawn out to gaze into the future, Tony, that
was a remarkable bit of future gazing for which we are most grateful.
(Mr Higgins) Good.
Mr Foster
686. Can I come to one point of the application
process which has puzzled me. For what reason is it that students
cannot apply for both Oxford and Cambridge?
(Mr Higgins) I think the reason is that the system
of considering the application for both universities is a residential
one. It is a two day, sometimes even a three day, interview process,
certainly two days with an overnight stop. The only possible time
of doing that would be over the Christmas vacation, a large part
of which is blocked off now by the traditional holiday, say, between
23 December and whatever it is, 2 January. It is logistically
extremely, extremely difficult to do that. However, this is an
issue that we have under consideration with Oxbridge. We are looking
at some of our procedures, some decisions have been made. One
of them is an examination as to whether students should be able
to apply to both Cambridge and Oxford or not as the case may be.
687. Do you think that this is a barrier to
students who perhaps are not sure of what Oxford offers or what
Cambridge offers, that they can only go for one, whereas if we
are trying to broaden a wider participation and encourage people
to go to Oxford and Cambridge who have no prior experience of
that, no family members to talk to, they should be free and open
to apply to both?
(Mr Higgins) As I understand it, the view from Oxford
and Cambridge, although they should speak for themselves, is if
you can apply to both you only have six choices in all and they
are both extremely difficult universities to get into as we know,
for obvious reasons, and that might begin to block off access
and to reduce the widening participation because for some of them
it may mean they have really only got four choices. That is not
a view that I necessarily share but we will be having our discussions
with two universities and some of the representative groups both
from schools and HE in the next few weeks.
Chairman
688. Is it next year or the year after that
the receiving university will only see the application from their
own—
(Mr Higgins) It will be for the year entry 2003.
689. 2003?
(Mr Higgins) Yes. There are considerable software
implications of programmes having to be written particularly in
the universities but also at UCAS. It will be from the application
year for entry 2003 that for the first time universities and colleges
will not be able to see the other universities and colleges to
which their applicants have applied, nor the decisions that have
been made about them.
Mr Foster
690. Can you understand people who have the
view with regard to the non-ability to put Cambridge and Oxford
as applications that it is more to do with elitism, snobbishness,
"oh well, if they have put Cambridge we do not want them
because we are Oxford" or "we are Cambridge, we could
not possibly want them if they have put Oxford"?
(Mr Higgins) There may be all kinds of misconceptions.
Chairman
691. What is your rationale for no longer putting
all of the universities? Why are you changing it in 2003, albeit
ever so slowly it seems to me?
(Mr Higgins) Because there is evidence that some institutions
are discriminating against applicants because they put other institutions
down on their application form, notably Oxford or Cambridge.
Dr Harris
692. This is institutions other than Oxford
or Cambridge, if people have put Oxford or Cambridge on that form
higher, are less likely to give them an interview?
(Mr Higgins) That is correct.
693. Gosh. That has very worrying implications
for people who feel they might be marginal for Oxford or Cambridge
and do not want to limit their opportunities elsewhere.
(Mr Higgins) Precisely.
694. That might deter them from applying to
Oxford and Cambridge.
(Mr Higgins) It is not a universal practice by any
means but there is some evidence that it happens.
Chairman
695. What has been the time between you as UCAS
making that decision and 2003? How long ago did you make the decision
to make the change?
(Mr Higgins) A fortnight ago, two weeks ago.
Mr Foster
696. How was that decision arrived at, for everybody
to be happy on a general consensus on the way ahead?
(Mr Higgins) Yes. It was a very long consultation,
what I might call an iterative consultation, among schools' groups
as well as individual universities and colleges and representative
bodies. Eventually the decision was taken, and happily so by the
institutions I have to say.
697. No dissenting voices?
(Mr Higgins) No.
Mr St Aubyn
698. A lot of this debate about access, particularly
to Oxbridge, has been framed in terms of proportion of students
with certain grades at A level and how many then got allocated
places, but in your press release last month on the new tariff
for A levels you are quoted as saying "Achievement at A level
was never meant to be used for allocating university places, still
less for performance tables". Can one read from that that
it would be a mistake to read too much into a crude analysis of
the distribution of A level results and then allocation of places
at specific universities?
(Mr Higgins) Yes. I did say, Nick, before you came
in that you could infer probably that somebody who got three As
or even four As at A level is a particularly bright individual
who would probably succeed at university or college, unless there
were financial or personal problems or something like that, and
somebody with two Es might actually struggle. Can you really fine
tune the difference between someone with two Bs and a C and a
B and two Cs or an A and a B and a C or two Bs and a D or two
As and an E? It is all rather difficult. What we have not done,
nobody has done satisfactorily, is to prepare a system of calculating
added value based on scores of A level entry into higher education
and then on graduation. That is a very, very difficult one to
crack.
Mr St Aubyn: I do not want to go over ground
that you have covered already.
Chairman: If you do I will stop you.
Mr St Aubyn
699. I am sure you will. Is it such a tragedy
in someone's life that they go to Bristol rather than Oxford?
Bristol might say that they offer just as good a course as Oxford
does but because of the quirks of the application system and the
fact they have put different colleges or different universities
at different points on their UCAS form that has some marginal
effect. There has to be an element of luck in this anyway.
(Mr Higgins) I should say you put institutions on
your UCAS form in alphabetical order and not in order of preference.
You might assume if you put down Oxford or Cambridge they are
the first choice, but even so Oxford might be fourth on the list.
I think I would go back to the days at the beginning of the real
mass expansion of higher education and the creation of the polytechnics
with generations of people going on to polytechnic, going to higher
education for the first time, but perhaps being desperately disappointed
that they went to a polytechnic and then graduating at the end
of it saying "I had an absolutely fantastic time". I
spoke to sixth formers at some schools this May and very few of
them had ever heard of the polytechnics. It was not actually part
of their vocabulary. I worked at Loughborough University, a fantastic
university, but who remembers that it was once a College of Advanced
Technology, or Bath University? Gradually I think things begin
to equalise themselves out particularly as we have got a generation
of students who went into higher education 18, 21, 23 years ago,
say into the polytechnics particularly, who are now of course
parents and they begin to have children of that age who want to
go into higher education and they advise them to go down a completely
different route.
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