Examination of Witnesses (Questions 760
- 779)
WEDNESDAY 5 JULY 2000
DR COLIN
LUCAS, PROFESSOR
DAVID MARQUAND,
MS JANE
MINTO AND
MR EDWIN
PEEL
Helen Jones
760. We have talked about encouraging more people
to apply to Oxford. Can we perhaps focus a little on what happens
to them when they do apply and particularly on your interview
procedure. You say from your evidence that great store is set
by the interview procedure used by colleges. Now I wonder if you
would like to explain to the Committee in a little more detail
exactly what training some of your admissions tutors have for
that procedure and try and be a little more specific about what
you are looking for bearing in mind the problem of differentiation
which the Chairman raised at the beginning?
(Dr Lucas) Would it be alright if I asked Ed Peel
as a working admissions tutor to answer the part about what you
are looking for and Jane to answer the bit about what training
is given?
Chairman
761. Yes, if we start with Ed then.
(Mr Peel) Let me first of all say that I have not
been through the formal training process at Oxford that Jane will
outline but I have previously taught at the Universities of Leeds
and Durham where I had some training. I was also a practising
lawyer and obviously had some training in interview techniques
there but not necessarily quite the same thing. I have had interview
training but I have not been through the Oxford interviewing training
process. What are we looking for in the interviews? The interview
is one factor to take into account. It is a significant factor
but it is certainly not the only one. The reason why it is significant
is because we are somewhat swamped by very well qualified candidates
chasing only a limited number of places and, therefore, whilst
ultimately the A level grades are a primary benchmark as it were,
if only in the sense that they form the basis of our conditional
offer which is made to the students, we have to try and look a
little beyond that because the vast majority of the candidates
applying to us will get the two As and a B or the three As that
we require for the course that they are applying for. So we look
for other features and the interview is one of them. It may also
be that we look to a short written test that they take when they
come for the interview. We may also ask them to send examples
of written work, so the interview has to be seen in that context.
In the interview itself, it is an aptitude test of a sort. There
has been talk about a formal written aptitude test but the interview
itself is an aptitude test in the sense that it is not particularly
concerned with knowledge from the students for the course that
they are applying for. With some degrees, of course, it would
be impossible to expect that. In my own subject, law, very few
students take law A level. We are looking to see if they have
the potential for the course that they are applying for. Can they
think in the way that is required for the course? Can they work
their way through the sort of problems that they will encounter
on the course that they have applied for? This means that the
content of the interview can be subject matter related. I can
give interviews based around legal issues without necessarily
expecting any knowledge of the law but seeing when given information
and facts whether the student can work their way through the problem.
In a sense what an interview is, it is something of a mock tutorial,
it is a flavour of what students will get if they come to the
university and it is a chance for the tutor to see if they can
make the most of the opportunity that is provided for them in
that particular context. In a nut shell, I think it is an aptitude
test of sorts, trying to test for potential.
Helen Jones
762. Can I then look at the figures of what
that produces. We talked about the numbers of applicants from
state schools and independent schools. On the figures you have
given to us, 57 per cent of the applicants are from state schools
and they get 53 per cent of the offers whereas 43 per cent of
the applicants are from independent schools and they get 47 per
cent of the offers. Can you explain to the Committee why that
discrepancy should be?
(Mr Peel) I think there may be a number of reasons.
I do not rule out the prospect that there may be some remaining
faults within the system and we are always vigilant to ensure
that is not the case. It has to be said that gap is nowhere near
as large as it has been presented in previous coverage so I am
glad we are now looking at the true facts.
763. These are your figures.
(Mr Peel) We would be quite happy to open up those
figures to anybody.
Chairman
764. Ed, could you just clarify that because
we are talking about both in terms of performance indicators and
benchmarking where Oxford comes off rather poorly in both criteria?
(Mr Peel) If we start introducing the type of benchmark
criteria which is featured in HEFCE reports and Sutton Trust reports
then we introduce the other feature of the initiative that we
have been concentrating on because to a large extent that gap
between the benchmark and the offers that are made is due to the
smaller number of applicants from suitably qualified state sector
pupils. Obviously we have spent a lot of time discussing the measures
we are trying to take to improve those applications. I have to
say that is our number one priority. The question you are asking
me now is when we get those applications is there a potential
fault in the system. I do not think there is a major structural
fault in the system, I think there are a number of reasons why
those figures are slightly distorted. Some of them come from the
courses that we offer compared with the A levels which are available
in state schools. Whether we like it or not Latin and Greek are
very, very rarely taught now in state schools. We still provide
a Classics degree course and the private schools get a large number
of their students into that course because they provide a large
number of the applications. I think to an extent that is one of
the reasons.
765. Are there any subjects where state school
students perform much better than private?
(Mr Peel) I am not sure about much better but certainly
there are subjects—
(Ms Minto) In the following subjects we have more
students from the state sector than the independent sector: economics
and management, English, law, PPP, biochemistry, biology and chemistry,
and a whole range of other sciences.
766. What about mathematics?
(Ms Minto) Yes, that is there too.
Helen Jones
767. I am not actually asking a question about
whether you have more students from state schools than independent
schools, I am asking the question about what happens to the students
from different schools when they apply. The question of encouraging
more applications is a different question. I am actually asking
you to explain the discrepancies in admissions based on the application
rate?
(Dr Lucas) First of all, there is a discrepancy and
it is about four per cent. Whether four per cent is really statistically
very significant I am not sure but I will come back to that in
a second. It is clear that one of the reasons why there is that
discrepancy is because we have quite a lot of bunching on some
competitive subjects. We can talk to you about that in detail
if you wish. Nonetheless, there is that discrepancy but I do not
think it is a discrepancy due to discrimination of any sort. The
other thing I would like to say is about these benchmarks that
you are using. You will remember that the HEFCE benchmark document
makes it quite clear that what one needs to look at are adjusted
sector benchmarks, the crude figures—if I may put it that
way—like that do not allow you to make comparisons. It is
really the standard deviation which is the figure that one needs
to look at.
Chairman
768. Yes.
(Dr Lucas) It is clear that we have a standard deviation
on school origin which needs to be corrected, it is 0.8. I would
also point out, if I may, the document is a public document so
you can see it there, that taking those, I would not say at random
but who are within our group, the same standard deviation in school
background applies to Nottingham and Newcastle, that Cambridge
has a standard deviation of 0.9, that Imperial has one of 1.3,
that LSE has one of 2.0 and Oxford Brookes has one of 0.9. That
is not to say that we do not have an issue to deal with but it
is an issue which is not specific to us.
Helen Jones
769. On the figures we have, could it be that
while your interview system is perhaps very good at identifying
some things, there may also be a cultural problem in that what
is perceived by the interviewer as being a rigorous testing of
the ability to think can be perceived by some students as quite
intimidating and maybe rude if they have not been prepared sufficiently
for the interview?
(Mr Peel) Yes, there is always the danger of that.
The interview is meant to be rigorous, intellectually rigorous.
I think it has to be because unless we push the students we do
not get the differentiation that we are looking for. I think we
take all the measures we can take, I have to say, to try and remove
any possibility that might be intimidating or rude. We do suffer
from the problem—and there is very little we can do about
it—which is a problem I mentioned before, that while these
very well qualified candidates when they go on into their careers
will come across the interview process, this is the very first
time that they do come across it and there is very little we can
do about that other than to try and take the measures we take
to try and put them at their ease. It would be extremely unfortunate
if a candidate came out of an interview and thought they had been
the victim of a hostile or intimidatory attack, that would not
be the intention. I cannot rule out the possibility that a candidate,
particularly one who feels they have not done their best, may
feel that way.
770. Okay. Does the training of your interviewers
cover awareness of those kinds of issues and cover, if you like,
cultural differences in perceptions?
(Ms Minto) Yes, it does, absolutely. It is a whole
day course that we run and one of the issues that we deal with
is sensitivity to background. We also bring in an equal opportunities
officer to explain about the different nature of different candidates
and expectations and so on. That is something we are conscious
of.
771. One more before I finish. Looking at the
HEFCE figures, the percentage of first degree applications from
social classes three to five in Oxford is eight per cent. We accept
that no university does well in attracting candidates from lower
socio-economic groups, it is a problem throughout the system.
Could you explain to me why the figures are so much higher at
some of the other Russell Group universities: 18 per cent in King's
for instance, it is 14 per cent for UCL? What is the explanation
for that difference between them and Oxford?
(Dr Lucas) Once again you have to look at the standard
deviation. You will see that King's is 1.1 whereas we are 0.6.
These are the adjusted sector benchmarks. I think that part of
the problem, if I may interject, is that we are not a city university.
We have to attract people to come to us and there is a cultural
problem about that I think. The growth of, as it were, the regionalisation
of recruitment to universities has been happening for at least
ten years. We do not have the ability to do the kind of scheme—what
do they call them, I have just blocked on that—that pairs
a university with schools in their own city.
(Ms Minto) Compacts.
(Dr Lucas) Compacts, that is right. School compacts.
Chairman
772. Why not?
(Dr Lucas) Because we have to do it at a distance.
We have started certainly a series of relationships but if you
take the University of Manchester, for example, or the University
of Salford, they are in big conurbations where they can quite
directly go to these schools and vice versa. The children do not
feel the same inhibition, I think, as they do about travelling
to what is clearly a culturally different environment—I
could not say it is not—that we have. So I think there are
those inhibitions. That is not to say that we must not do more
along these lines that we have been talking about to overcome
that. We do not claim that we have a perfect system. We are not
being smug at all about that. Of course we are not complacent.
I do not think it is a straight forward explanation to be contained
simply within the way we are and what we do, there are also these
inhibiting factors.
Valerie Davey
773. I am hearing a degree of goodwill from
you, I am also dismayed by some of the comments. I am just coming
back to basics again. What is your motivation at Oxford for including
more youngsters from the state sector?
(Dr Lucas) I think the motivation is pretty straight
forward, if I may put it that way. What we are looking for is
excellence, that is where we begin and that is where we end. We
cannot allow our university to be less than excellent for all
the reasons which we have laid out, not least from our position
in the international environment, but it is my contention—and
it is a contention of the people you have in front of you and
of a great many of our colleagues—that if you open up, if
you try to attract more and more pupils from the state sector,
you will get more excellent students to choose from.
774. Then I put it to you that I think personally,
as somebody who has not been directly involved, and my colleagues
have, with Oxbridge, either as a student or with teachers or anyone
else, the biggest hurdle is still your collegiate system and that
your defence of that sounds very strange to the outside world.
I was so pleased to hear about your involvement with the FE sector
and then you go on to say you have got £50,000 as a contribution
to help with that which will cover seven of your colleges.
(Dr Lucas) Yes.
775. Again my heart sinks and I think here are
seven colleges who may have that link, what about Oxford—I
am talking about Oxbridge, I am talking about Oxford—how
can you assure people who are in the state sector? I like the
element of your question which says "We are looking for excellence",
I agree with that entirely but I think still from what you say
excellent candidates will not get into Oxford and Cambridge because
of the collegiate system which does not allow that clarity of
understanding—the Chairman has talked of percentages, about
a system which is clear and understandable—that needs essentially
to be there. I am sorry I find it very difficult to hear your
defending still the differentiation of the collegiate system.
How can you come to us and say "Yes, FE, but only seven colleges".
(Professor Marquand) We have to start somewhere, I
think is the answer. Mansfield is one small college. We have only
been a full college at the University for five years. Quite soon
after I got there we decided we ought to do something about this.
First of all we thought of trying to do it all by ourselves and
that was obviously ludicrous. Then we realised pretty soon that
we would need to have a group of other colleges if the whole scheme
was going to work adequately and we set about creating this consortium.
As a matter of fact, we could have expanded it beyond the seven
because by the end of the process people were knocking on our
doors and saying "Can we join?". We decided we could
not accommodate more. You have to understand this is not a university
scheme, this is a college scheme.
776. With respect, that is exactly the point.
The people from my perspective do not understand that and find
it incredibly elitist and difficult. That is a huge barrier.
(Professor Marquand) I really do not see what is elitist
about trying to do this. Yes, it is easier elsewhere in some ways.
Before I came to Oxford I taught at Sheffield. I have spent most
of my academic career teaching in non collegiate universities.
A long, long time ago, I taught at Sussex. Then I did various
other things like being in this place. Then I taught at Salford
for a long time. Then I taught at Sheffield. Of course there are
certain advantages in not having a collegiate system but there
are enormous advantages in having a collegiate system as well.
There is a trade-off. This gets us into a whole lot of much deeper
issues.
Chairman
777. We are not talking about the whole collegiate
system which some of us would defend.
(Professor Marquand) No.
778. We are talking about applications and the
way it works. There is a very strong voice in this.
(Professor Marquand) Yes, I know.
779. Within Oxford and Cambridge who themselves
criticise the collegiate system of admissions and would like a
university wide system.
(Professor Marquand) I thought the question that you
were posing was more about the damage done by the collegiate system
as such. I did not take it that you were only talking about in
relation to admissions.
|
