Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1060
- 1069)
WEDNESDAY 19 JULY 2000
PROFESSOR SIR
KENNETH CALMAN,
DR GEOFFREY
COPLAND PROFESSOR
DIANA GREEN
AND MR
WILLIAM LOCKE
1060. So it is equivalent in terms of its value
in the market place, or as a stepping stone to further academic—
(Sir Kenneth Calman) Your first question was about
equivalence. The second question is not about equivalence but
about the range of courses, and the range of courses will vary
considerably between university and university. That is what we
call the differentiated higher education system.
1061. Absolutely, but she felt that the opportunities
available to her in a similar course of study were much wider
and richer than that which her friend was experiencing.
(Sir Kenneth Calman) I think you would have to tell
us the course.
(Professor Copland) I really do not think you can
comment on that because it is a very specific question on which
we do not have the background.
1062. That is fair enough. Moving beyond that,
do you think, given that most students learn to earn these days,
that out in the market place by far the most important question
is what sort of degree a student has obtained rather than the
university at which they obtained it?
(Sir Kenneth Calman) I am not sure that I agree with
that.
1063. You would not agree with that?
(Sir Kenneth Calman) Not necessarily. I think it is
a much more complex question than that.
(Professor Copland) I was going to say something similar.
The market place is highly differentiating. There is a huge range
of employers, in terms of what they are looking for and where
they think they can get the most appropriate curriculum to fit
within their organisation, from the big multinational down to
the small, SMEs and local employers. Again, I think the question
is too broad to be answered.
1064. What we are saying, then, is that while
degrees may be equivalent in terms of demonstrating academic attainment
and ability, they may have very different outcomes depending on
which university a student goes to, both in terms of how diverse
and rich an education they receive at their higher education institution
and in terms of their job opportunities at the end of that, if
they decide to go into the workplace.
(Professor Copland) Can I respond to that slightly
differently? Yes, of course, a university like Cambridge, which
you mention, will have a different atmosphere, a different feel,
different experiences with students from a university which is
based in an inner city, such as the University of Westminster,
by the very nature of where they are located, what their traditions
are and what the historic resourcing has been. My students in
Westminster are right in the centre of the capital city. They
have a very different experience to draw on from the student sitting
in a campus university outside a medium-sized town. So, yes, different
universities will have different experiences. That has nothing
to do with the quality of the university, it is to do with the
environment in which the university is placed. Some students who
will thrive in an inner city environment would find it very difficult
in a campus environment, and vice-versa.
Chairman
1065. Much as I promised the Vice-Chancellors
that we would finish by 11 o'clock—and I can hear the bells
striking—I always allow the people who are good enough to
come to our Committee and answer our questions to have the last
bite, if you like. Is there anything, in terms of our Committee's
inquiry, that you would like to put on record that we should cover
or include that we have not covered today? Would all four of you
have a very quick bite at that before you finish?
(Sir Kenneth Calman) One very specific point, and
that is the use of the word "elite". It keeps coming
up, although we have not used it today, as it happens. If "elite"
means "excellent", "distinctive" and "quality",
I think that is what I would like our university to be. If it
means "exclusive", that is not what it is about. I think
universities who, for some reason or another, fall in this "elite"
category think of themselves as top quality, distinctive, associated
with excellence, not exclusive. I would not have the name "elite"
associated with Durham if it meant "exclusive".
(Professor Green) Going back to the very beginning,
we spoke about trying to identify some of the barriers to access.
One of the barriers that we have not talked about—and it
is a very important one—is actually some of the partners
that universities have to work with, called the professional bodies.
They are imposing barriers as well which are getting in the way
of our attempts to widen participation. Starting with the Engineering
Council, starting with now the RICS in terms of some of the barriers
it is keen to introduce. It is a multi-faceted issue we have got
here, and I think we can only go so far. Our hands are also being
tied because we have to meet the criteria of the professional
bodies who are accrediting the programmes that we offer, and if
we do not actually meet that criteria we disadvantage the students.
1066. That is very useful, Diana.
(Professor Copland) One last comment, really. Kenneth
has picked up the use of the word "elite", but the other
words that I find some difficulty with is the encapsulation of
something called "top universities" or "leading
universities". What is a top university for one subject may
well not be a top university for another. We can all give you
examples of subject areas where we have the top university. So
the top university for one student is not the same as the top
university for another. I do think if we can get those words out
of the vocabulary we would move this debate forward much more
helpfully.
1067. The very last thing is that our special
adviser has asked me to ask you whether the CVCP would be happy
to see the release of the targets which the universities submitted
to HECFE?
(Sir Kenneth Calman) They are public anyway.
1068. So you are happy?
(Professor Copland) There is no problem.
1069. Can I thank you for your attendance and
thank you for keeping to time. We have learnt a lot and I hope
you did not find the experience too unpleasant. Thank you for
coming.
(Professor Copland) Thank you for your invitation.
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