Examination of Witnesses(Questions 100
- 115)
WEDNESDAY 10 NOVEMBER 1999
MS IMOGEN
SHARP, MS
MAGGIE SANDERSON
AND DR
MICHAEL NELSON
100. This is the way it might happen?
(Ms Sharp) Yes.
101. Because of the distribution problems it
will need to be done on a flexible basis.
(Ms Sharp) Absolutely.
102. Turning on to the question of consultation,
do you feel that the consultation process is adequate for the
guidelines which are being published?
(Ms Sharp) Yes, I feel it has been. I feel the Ingredients
for Success, was fully consulted on, we had a fair consultation
on it. Obviously the new document is fairly recently out and we
have been looking at it in the last couple of days to see that.
We feel that different points of view have been taken on board
and perhaps the solution in the guidelines at the moment is perhaps
not as clear as it might be, so at the back of the document we
have the Caroline Walker Trust Guidelines, which of course we
are delighted to see, but they are not the legal basis. The legal
basis is how many portions of whatever the law says you must serve
which we feel is quite restrictive as a way forward for the law
to be saying you may not serve baked beans more than once a week.
We would hope that the process of consultation, therefore, really
hears the views over the next period.
103. Do you feel that if the Government listened
to you and followed a more nutrient based approach, they would
have avoided some of the criticisms we have already heard this
morning about these guidelines being patronising and prescriptive?
(Ms Sanderson) I think they would.
104. Do you think perhaps it is a case of perhaps
the nutrient content is something you might have a standard about
and these other things may be points of general guidance rather
than setting down the law?
(Ms Sharp) Indeed. We would turn the whole thing on
its head and say "Here is your legal basis and this is how
you would achieve it" rather than "this is what you
should serve and this, if you are lucky, might be what you achieve
nutritionally".
(Ms Sanderson) And the nutritional standards should
be a goal we are trying to achieve.
Charlotte Atkins
105. I do not know if you have done any research
on this but do you think that the standards in school meals has
declined since the previous government took nutritional guidelines
off the menu as far as school meals are concerned?
(Ms Sanderson) It is difficult to say but from some
of the latest information we have from school children it looks
as if it is more or less the same. Fats have improved slightly
but the contribution of school meals seems to be more or less
the same as it was in 1983 when the last data was collected.
106. In that case is there any good reason for
putting nutritional guidelines back on the menu?
(Ms Sanderson) I think there is.
(Dr Nelson) Absolutely.
(Ms Sanderson) The nutrient intake of children could
lead to many problems in later life. The fat content was too high,
the sugar content was too high, some of the essential minerals
and vitamins were too low.
Charlotte Atkins: More fruit in schools and
less people going to prison!
Chairman
107. Can I just follow up the long term. Clearly
you have a specialist input to make to the consultation at this
point in time. Looking ahead, who is going to monitor the nutritional
values of a region or a school? How do you envisage that will
develop?
(Ms Sharp) The first thing I would say is that whatever
is monitored has to be monitorable. I think we have to get the
practicalities right which is another reason why we advocate nutrient
standards because you can measure them. After the Caroline Walker
Trust Report which actually laid down those guidelines, those
standards, we then produced from the National Heart Forum the
School Meals Assessment Package, a simple computer tool that measured
what was being served against those guidelines so you can see
how you are doing. Also there is another computer package being
produced by the Caroline Walker Trust for the under fives so that
can be done in nursery schools as well. On the longer term, in
terms of who does it, as you know we recommend that OFSTED gets
given that role. The reason we have come up with that is because
it is the school standard or should be an educational standard
that we are looking at. We do not recommend that OFSTED hires
its own dietitians and runs around the country doing all this
monitoring but I feel it could be done in terms of a delegated
responsibility that then OFSTED could check it is being done,
how often it is being done. Also we recommend that once a year
any schools or any contract holders should have a local community
dietitian from the health authority come in and do a quick assessment
but on a more regular basis you could use a simple questionnaire.
So you would have a series of tools but the ultimate responsibility,
OFSTED will come and check. Our worry with the delegated funding
is that if every school has to meet the standards, monitor that
they are meeting the standards, etc., it is another huge responsibility.
It is an opportunity for Government and for head teachers but
our concern is that with that they are going to need to bring
in expertise to be able to monitor and look at what is being provided
rather than trying to do it themselves. We have suggested that
a nominated governor has that responsibility. I would not expect
them to do the monitoring themselves, I would expect them to bring
somebody in such as a dietitian.
108. You said specifically what is being served.
(Ms Sharp) Yes.
109. Now this is the whole nub of the problem,
is it not? If we are not careful we are going to go back to the
time when a balanced diet was put in front of children who then
did not eat it. Presumably what should be tested as well is the
health of the children.
(Ms Sharp) Absolutely.
110. It is then matching those two things. I
would particularly like to bring in Michael Nelson with your concern
about the needs of children at different stages. Who is going
to input into this document and into the regulations for the future
the concerns which you clearly have as a professional of different
young people, not just the different age groups but potentially
community groups? You have already identified those between lower
income and higher income but presumably some ethnic minority groups
with a particular need, how is all that going to be assessed and
monitored through this system?
(Dr Nelson) I think the current system of national
diet and nutrition surveys is likely to be the one that gives
us the best indication of the extent to which the meals are contributing
to good or poor nutritional health. To ask individual schools
or even local education authorities to try to undertake that would,
I think, be far too great a burden. What we would need to have
would be some integration of local monitoring of the kind that
Imogen is suggesting where even at the served rather than eaten
level you could certainly look at the nutrient content of the
food which is available to the children on a fairly regular basis
using appropriate software which would integrate with the purchasing
data from the caterers—I do not see that as being either
a great difficulty or a great burden—then to try and specifically
link that to information that was collected on a five yearly basis
perhaps from the Department of Health, FSA, whoever it happens
to be that is going to undertake nutritional monitoring, and make
sure that it addresses specifically questions of nutritional monitoring
at schools.
Charlotte Atkins
111. Have you got any concern about this issue
being delegated at secondary schools? Have you got general concerns
about what might happen to standards or whether they might go
over to the cold menu which does not require a kitchen and so
on?
(Dr Nelson) This is going back 20 years, the fact
that at that time, before 1980, it was the local education authority's
responsibility to monitor what was going on in their local schools
and they had a system whereby that was undertaken, usually with
the assistance of community dietitians or somebody who provided
that role. I do not see that as being a particular problem or
obstacle provided that the school governor can be directed to
an appropriate resource. Those resources do exist within the community.
Again, it may have implications for the National Health Service
if you are going to make sure that the community dietitians are
not going to be overstretched. I have seen instances where on
an ad hoc basis, because a particular caterer is interested or
a particular teacher in a school or a governor is interested,
they have asked the community dietitians to consult with them
but it has been very much on an ad hoc basis. Certainly I would
like to see that put on to a more regular footing in all schools
in the country at every level.
Chairman
112. Do you want to come in on this?
(Ms Sanderson) Yes, I have been looking at it quite
differently. I was very concerned that if the money was going
to be delegated to schools it should be ring fenced.
113. Yes, that is another point.
(Ms Sanderson) Schools are very short of money and
it should be used solely for the provision of meals.
114. Hypothecating seems to be the order of
the day at the moment.
(Ms Sanderson) Yes.
115. Can I thank you very much for your input
into our report, both your written submission and for your time
today. Also for the contribution I know you will be making to
the Department and to their draft regulations and I hope in an
ongoing way.
(Dr Nelson) I have prepared a brief paper, so if I
may table that for your interest.
Chairman: Thank you.
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