Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 272)
WEDNESDAY 26 JANUARY 2000
MR RICHARD
SMITH, MR
JON WILLIS,
DR DAVID
QUARMBY AND
MR IAN
BROWN
260. What else did you do and have you updated
it?
(Mr Willis) We have not updated it. One of the main
things that happened since then is significant growth on the national
rail network and the opportunities we looked at there, we looked
for example at the East London line and the Central line. They
are not feasible today because we are talking about higher volumes
of traffic.
261. So when we say there is a lot of underused
line we may not be absolutely accurate?
(Mr Willis) There are some lightly used lines in possibly
one or two places.
Chairman: Gentlemen, I do not want to detain
you much longer.
Mrs Gorman
262. May I ask one more question as a London
to Essex commuter. Is there anything that you can see in your
light rail experience that can do anything to relieve the kind
of congestion you get on the feeder roads when you come into London
when you have left the M11 and M12 at the Old Kent Road, the Mile
End Road and Harrow Road and all the major feeder lines? Is there
anything that you can envisage in your armoury here that will
do anything to assist that?
(Dr Quarmby) There are some very interesting and controversial
questions about the use of park and ride to bring commuters to
stations that are inside the M25. There are pros and cons of doing
that. Certainly London does not have much experience of the kind
of strategic park and ride which you do find in other cities in
the United Kingdom and across Europe and in the United States.
It is an area that bears further examination. There is always
the risk, which has been frequently quoted, that by providing
park and ride you attract even more commuters to drive for a portion
of their journey and then make the last bit by light rail rather
than getting a commuter train from somewhere in Essex and coming
all the way by train.
263. Use of the roads rather than the train
already indicates that you need something extra to tempt them?
(Dr Quarmby) I think the truth is that park and ride
would induce some people to drive some of the way rather than
use rail all the way. It would also induce some people to stop
their car half way on their journey and not drive all the way
into central London. We have not yet had a lot experience of formal
park and ride in London although there is a huge amount of informal
park and ride that already takes place all round London.
(Mr Willis) There is another significant role and
that is as feeders to the main radial network. From East Croydon
station it takes you 15 minutes to get to Victoria. Essentially
we are providing some very high quality rail feeders to that with
good interchange at East Croydon which is effectively extending
the catchment of that excellent service out along the feeders
out to places where we expect people to use the car.
264. How much of DLR's success was due to the
fact that you had access to money from the London Docklands Development
Corporation?
(Dr Quarmby) I was not around at the time, Chairman,
and I cannot answer that question in terms of the direct availability
of money. I do not know if Ian Brown can.
(Mr Brown) LDDC had loads of money. I think that is
undeniable. It was a very strong, aggressive plan and it worked
with the railway and brought those planning things together and
put more brought money into that equation, great, but I think
more recently with the Lewisham extension which was funded as
a public private partnership, it did not come from largesse to
the railway from LDC and the next extension is on the same basis.
It had a role at a certain point in time but it is not the whole
history of the railway.
265. What about the cost of light rapid transit
projects? Are they increased by the risks faced by private sector
participants?
(Dr Quarmby) The reward to risk that private sector
participants require obviously is reflected in the final cost
of the project.
266. So that is a yes.
(Dr Quarmby) It is but it is balanced by the financial
and other disciplines that are brought to bear in the construction
of a project for which we had very significant evidence in the
construction of the Lewisham extension which, as you know, was
opened two months early and on budget.
267. Did anybody use a public sector comparator
on that bit?
(Dr Quarmby) I believe it was. I do not have it in
front of me.
268. Would somebody like to look at it and see
whether we got good value for money on that. It would be interesting
to know.
(Dr Quarmby) We can certainly do that for you.
269. Thank you very much. Do you think the success
of light rail is because it looks good and its image is good and
therefore it is much more comfortable in every sense than travelling
on a bus which might be regarded as rather down market?
(Dr Quarmby) There are definite differences in the
performance and the service and the product between rail-borne
light rail and a road-borne bus, yes.
270. How do you narrow that quality gap?
(Dr Quarmby) You can narrow the quality gap by improving
the quality and ride of the buses, but I think the most important
thing is where you can provide a dedicated right-of-way for the
bus itself so that both the ride and the interruption from and
to other traffic is kept to a minimum.
Mrs Gorman: You might try to get a few more
cheerful drivers who take your money and conductors in some cases—I
am going to get my knuckles rapped for this—but if they
were more welcoming and said, "Hello, welcome to our bus."
Chairman: Nice welcoming drivers.
Mr Bennett
271. Surely much more important is an automatic
ticketing system so that you do not have any delay with people
getting on the bus?
(Dr Quarmby) You do not have to. You can do that with
any mode of transport. It is not peculiar to light rail or peculiar
to bus.
(Mr Smith) Your point is the essential issue about
light rapid transit, and does it really have this quality image
that you cannot replicate any other way with buses? One of the
things that we are being very careful about in Croydon is to do
an awful lot of work to research how people regard it before hand,
afterwards, and how they have responded to it to try and make
sure we understand that and we are able to put in a proper evaluation
to determine whether light rail or guided bus is the right option.
All the things that have been spoken about are part of the ingredients
of good buses and one of the things we are doing at the moment
is to make sure we have automated ticketing systems and so on
to really make sure that (the point made before) we are comparing
the best bus with light rail.
Chairman
272. Your predecessors many years ago took away
my 628 that I used to go to school on and now you are going to
put it back. Is that what I understand?
(Mr Smith) That is possible.
Chairman: Would that life were as simple as
it was when I went to school on a 628! Gentlemen, you have been
very kind. Thank you very much indeed.
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